What is an "Ex Believer", anyway?

Often, I hear certain people who used to have religious views (mainly Christian) refer to themselves as an ex-believer. Forgive me, but I find this concept hard to define. It would be as if I once went to visit my Uncle Bill in New York City when I was 7. After meeting him and getting to know his farm, I came home with my parents. Years later, my parents told me that Uncle Bill was not our real Uncle. Who did I meet, then? Don't give me the suggestibility psychological arguments. I maintain that those who used to believe in God never actually experienced meeting Him. If they had, they would know it!

I know. We really should do a test to validate or invalidate my sanity! Not by Blood. We are not related to God by Blood unless His Blood is accepted as part of our belief. His shed Blood, that is. No. A Believer is someone who has actually( at least in their perception) met God...through a spiritual epiphany. My point is that once you meet someone, you can never deny their reality. OK. I will admit that I am asking everyone to accept MY idea of Belief.
I keep forgetting that my truth is not perceived by many of you as your truth. Alas.... Why yes! You are right. But why is this fallacy provable as false?
What are the rules of logic, here? Are we bound by human wisdom derived logic or can we allow my experience with the divine to be entered as my source of truth? So lets wheel Phatboy off to the rubber room and reassure him that he met god....all the while defending the sanity of a society which surely could never allow such a supernatural truth to be a viable possibility. Come visit me occasionally, and I will tell you more supernatural tales from the world which you dismiss as insanity. Uncle Bill=God. And yes, I DO talk with Him every day. Were you to observe me, you could rightly conclude that I was talking to myself. Rightly, at least, within your belief paradigm.
What if you experienced what I claim to have experienced. Would you stick to your rational mind and attempt every way to explain your experience within a empiracal framework?
In other words, do you refuse to consider belief because it is uncomfortable, impossible, or merely threatening to your own sense of control over what you allow to influence you? BTW Lam...Don't we have fun disagreeing with each other? If I ever became smitten with your logic and reasoning and wanted to be tutored by you, would you not want to gag? In other words, is not disagreeing with me more fun? Why else do we waste our time here?
I really could be watching T.V. right now...which reminds me...gotta go! This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-23-2005 01:56 AM

Gee Paul. I dunno? How can anyone believe in Christianity without believing in a Risen Christ?Unless you are framing it as yet another human philosophy. In which case, you believe in human wisdom as the apex. Which I can accept.Lets just agree on definitions here.

*sigh* Yes. Bring on the Bishop! I would be honored to be challenged by a Believer. If the Bishop so qualifies, that is! Unless the title is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, in which case the person has the power and the ability to draw all unto Himself.I appreciates everyones feedback. I don't really feel up for this discussion this morning...maybe later. It was a good one, though. We all got our points out, I believe.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 03-23-2005 08:15 AM

If you were in the store and a person came up and told you that there was a shooter in the parking lot and yet you saw everyone else acting normally and unconvinced, you would probably seek more facts. If you saw evidence around you of a disturbance, you may take the person at their word without further investigation.I am proposing to you that our world is not normal. It is not explained away by psychology alone. Or science alone. Or history. Or current events.It is also not explained by theology alone. I don't really expect you to believe me. I only ask that even if the facts disagree with my testimony, you keep my testimony in mind before you make up your mind.

Did you have an emotional and lifestyle transformation?Did you have multiple times in prayer where you strongly felt that there was a presence apart from the norm? Was it a good feeling?I feel confidant that God is with me every moment. This is subjective, to be sure but did you ever have such confidence away from the church?If the above are yes, why in the world are you so intent on sticking with facts and not stepping out in faith?

Mike and Mr. Jack: Good morning! I just got up here in Denver and again had yet another nudge of enthusiasm from God (inasmuch as I could deny Him) through a well said sermon by a trusted radio Pastor.You ask me how my definitions are any different or more valid than yours? I have no doubt...absolutely, unequivacably 0% doubt that I have at a point in my life actually met God. I am not scientifically trying to prove or disprove it. The emotional change and resulting satisfaction could be a big part of the reason why.I actually changed almost totally when I met Him. It was not something that I consciously planned. You may point out similarities between my epiphany and brainwashed cultists, rabid fundamentalist terrorists, or evan swooning Elvis devotees.I won't deny the similarities. We all are influenced by something and impressed somehow, finally, with what we choose to believe in.Perhaps I can rephrase the term, ex-believer. You were, in my opinion, never an ex believer because you have always believed and believe even more strongly now in the logic and sanity of your own mind.Am I suggesting that many Christians can be and are gullible? Yes.
Too few think for themselves. They are indeed sheep in the biblical allegorical sense, but they become sheep of human shepherds who fleece them, use them, and at best commune with them in the churchian
lifestyle which often excludes the rest of the world which we need to be helping.In this regard, atheists ARE often more socially active and aware than are Christians. It is a sad yet true paradox.To put it in the blunt words of some critics who have refuted Christian validity, "An atheist is not sitting around waiting for some sky daddy to tell them which foot to put in front of the other."We all get our wisdom from each other, then? Tell me what specific sources of wisdom you have gleaned off of in the last month.
We can further talk about original sources after that.

So mike hagar, it does not feel good to have others tell you what you have experienced or what the validity of your beliefs are, does it? People will tell me that Jesus, whom I know better than I know you in an intrinsic way, is a product of my imagination. How dare they attempt to use their knowledge of human behavior and assumptions based on a clearly inconclusive number of scholars to determine the validity of MY beliefs?I did judge you based upon my defintions of belief. I do not just believe in "christianity" as you have heard that some did. I believe in the person of Christ...not as a historical figure, not based on how He appears or appeared to others, but based solely on how He currently relates to me.It was in this context that I judged your belief. My point is that Christ is a living Spirit that is as real to me as meeting any flesh and blood person would be. On this definition, and in this context, I am saying that once you have met someone, you surely cannot deny the fact.My assumption, arrogant though it may sound, is that you are treating the "meeting" as a mistake on your part. You must remember that there are different world views. My world view is that God exists. Period. Call it ad hoc. Call it apriori. Call it any of those clever little terms that the intellectual atheists at positiveatheism.org have drummed up in THEIR arrogance!My belief suggests that my mind is not the penultimate decision making facility to verify my belief. My belief was veried for me by an external source who now is internally within me.Based on MY belief, and definition thereof, you could not have had the same belief without allowing for your mind to reject and redefine the very definition of belief.Now that I've cleared that up, perhaps you can tell us your current definition of belief and correct my bumbling presumptions. If you have changed MY definition of belief, you can then be classified as an ex believer. My definition is not defined penultimately by human wisdom.

But I was a kid! I also believed that I was a superhero! I also believed that monsters were in my closet. I believed that my dad was rich and strong! Santa was a good fantasy for a kid, but I never actually expected him to fit down our chimney!
Even as a kid, I knew that he was made up...in a self denying sort of way. My spiritual epiphany--born again experience--was different. I never expected God to become as real as He did that day and on subsequent occasions. Each confirmation was unexpected.To tell you the truth, I have not had any confirmations in the past three or four years. It does not surprise me because I never count on them...but I have been confronted with many skeptics and ex-believers such as yourself...armed with their evidence.Meeting God was as real as meeting you...I know how neither of you appear, and yet I could never deny that there was an online female known as Schraff...who despises my morality, BTW (The prison comment was aimed at raising hackles)

Could'nt have said it better myself! Preachers are kinda like the Macys Santa...they work in a place of business. They may talk like the Boss, but they ain't the Boss!

Did you hear that?

And if enough adults were solemnly sure that they had at one point in their lives met Santa and were STILL in a form of communication with said head elf,
I would take the possibility seriously. Science is useful, but it is not the final determination of facts in my life nor in the lives of many, many others.
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In order to reach the top shelf, stretch your legs. In order to reach the Top Elf, stretch your Belief.
Tall Tales

I brought up this old topic so that those of you at EvC who see me talking of my questions and doubts concerning God and religion can see how I used to be.CLICK on Phat Posts Only and briefly read a few. How have I changed? Is it for the better or for the worse?

Or suppose that Uncle Bill was a patriot yet helped the Russians manipulate the 2016 election? Would I love him or hate him?Anyway, lets address this whole idea of what an ex-believer is.....Childhood doesnt count. I believed willingly in lots of fantasies back then.
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