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Author | Topic: What is an "Ex Believer", anyway? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
as counting Pinhead Angels, I may also see where there is a possibility of creating some understanding between the two groups.
Your Santa example is near perfect. Suppose the child actually met the real Santa, not a storefront Santa, not Macy's Santa, not even Edmund Gwenn Santa, but the realy McCoy. In that case, even as the child matured he or she would still believe in Santa. The rest of us may not have met the real Santa so it's perfectly reasonable for us to doubt the account, and there is absolutely no way that the child can prove his belief (he did get his Captain Midnight Glow in the Dark Decoder Ring but it was from Post, not Santa so it really isn't much evidence). It is a reasonable assumption though that if one did meet the real Santa, then it would be hard to later not believe in the experience. It is equally reasonable to meet Edmund Gwenn who is enough like our vision of Santa to fool any child, and later realize he is nothing but a kindly old man with a beard. The existence or non-existence of GOD will be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, but unfortunately, not under conditions where that knowledge can be disseminated. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Now, would you now say that you never really "actually, truly" believed in Santa? But I was a kid! I also believed that I was a superhero! I also believed that monsters were in my closet. I believed that my dad was rich and strong! Santa was a good fantasy for a kid, but I never actually expected him to fit down our chimney!Even as a kid, I knew that he was made up...in a self denying sort of way. My spiritual epiphany--born again experience--was different. I never expected God to become as real as He did that day and on subsequent occasions. Each confirmation was unexpected. To tell you the truth, I have not had any confirmations in the past three or four years. It does not surprise me because I never count on them...but I have been confronted with many skeptics and ex-believers such as yourself...armed with their evidence. Meeting God was as real as meeting you...I know how neither of you appear, and yet I could never deny that there was an online female known as Schraff...who despises my morality, BTW (The prison comment was aimed at raising hackles)
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Could'nt have said it better myself! Preachers are kinda like the Macys Santa...they work in a place of business. They may talk like the Boss, but they ain't the Boss!
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[quote]Meeting God was as real as meeting you...I know how neither of you appear, and yet I could never deny that there was an online female known as Schraff.
Huh. Well, then can you get God to start posting here? Or maybe just get him to post a jpg of Himself in the thread where my picture is.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Schraff writes:
Did you hear that?
Well, then can you get God to start posting here?
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nator Member (Idle past 2191 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Hear what?
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4755 From: u.k Joined: |
Shraff writes: Danta claus. I knew it was you Dan! Hey Shraff, honestly though, I believed I could fly like superman when I was a kid. It's not the same as belief in God, or the truth that prayer brings.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Jar writes: And if enough adults were solemnly sure that they had at one point in their lives met Santa and were STILL in a form of communication with said head elf, Your Santa example is near perfect. Suppose the child actually met the real Santa, not a storefront Santa, not Macy's Santa, not even Edmund Gwenn Santa, but the real McCoy. In that case, even as the child matured he or she would still believe in Santa. The rest of us may not have met the real Santa so it's perfectly reasonable for us to doubt the account, and there is absolutely no way that the child can prove his belief (he did get his Captain Midnight Glow in the Dark Decoder Ring but it was from Post, not Santa so it really isn't much evidence). It is a reasonable assumption though that if one did meet the real Santa, then it would be hard to later not believe in the experience. It is equally reasonable to meet Edmund Gwenn who is enough like our vision of Santa to fool any child, and later realize he is nothing but a kindly old man with a beard.I would take the possibility seriously. Science is useful, but it is not the final determination of facts in my life nor in the lives of many, many others. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * In order to reach the top shelf, stretch your legs. In order to reach the Top Elf, stretch your Belief. Tall Tales
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Ben! Member (Idle past 1419 days) Posts: 1161 From: Hayward, CA Joined: |
LOL!!! Phatboy, stop that! God isn't going to start posting here, no matter how many times you ask!
(hands together looking towards the ceiling) Right?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I brought up this old topic so that those of you at EvC who see me talking of my questions and doubts concerning God and religion can see how I used to be.
CLICK on Phat Posts Only and briefly read a few. How have I changed? Is it for the better or for the worse?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
2005 Phat said:
How have I changed?quote:That seems to be pretty much what you're saying today. Suppose you found out instead that Uncle Bill was a war criminal. (I have thought about this because my ancestors came from Germany.) Who is the real "Uncle Bill"? Did you ever really know him? Do you still want to know him?
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Or suppose that Uncle Bill was a patriot yet helped the Russians manipulate the 2016 election? Would I love him or hate him? Suppose you found out instead that Uncle Bill was a war criminal. (I have thought about this because my ancestors came from Germany.) Who is the real "Uncle Bill"? Did you ever really know him? Do you still want to know him? Anyway, lets address this whole idea of what an ex-believer is..... Childhood doesnt count. I believed willingly in lots of fantasies back then.\ Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: Anyway, lets address this whole idea of what an ex-believer is..... Why are you making this difficult? An ex-believer is someone who used to believe but now doesn't. Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I'm making it difficult because as adults, we shouldn't have to do a 180 on our worldview. We should be consistent.
This isn't simply about Santa Claus... it's about reality itself. Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith
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Tangle Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.7 |
Phat writes: I'm making it difficult because as adults, we shouldn't have to do a 180 on our worldview. We should be consistent. Why? When we know something different to what we thought was true we change our minds surely?
This isn't simply about Santa Claus... it's about reality itself. But it's absolutely about Santa Clause, the supernatural is not reality, that's the whole point. The ONLY reason you now believe in Jesus Christ and the only reason I used to is that we were taught it from birth and lived in a society where Christianity is normal. Had we been brought up in the Atlas mountains we would not believe it. That's a straight forward, undeniable fact. A better question is why some people DON'T lose their beliefs. The reason seems to be that some people need the belief more than others but over time the number who do declines so in places like Scandanavia non-belief is the norm.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona "Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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