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Author Topic:   Society without property?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 121 (198604)
04-12-2005 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by kjsimons
04-12-2005 11:20 AM


quote:
And it was not a very high standard of living by modern standards and life was brutally short.
Yes, I agree, that if you measure the standard of life by how many people own gameboys and CD's and how cheap gasoline is, then our society has a pretty high standard of living. But is that really all there is to it? I was raised to believe that one's standard of living isn't measured by one material possessions.
And I agree that until recently life expectancy was short. In fact, it was slightly shorter than the current world average. But brutal? What do you mean brutal? And again, what place does quality of life play? Do you advocate quantity over quality?
At any rate, I read a lot of conversations between people who extol the advance of modern medicine, the conquest of traditional diseases, and how they would not want to live in a past age. Fair enough, but a fair question would also be: would someone living in a past age want to live in modern America? Why would you automatically assume so? I spent some time in a very poor African nation, where even the middle class, although supplied with all if it material needs, still lived in conditions that we affluent American would consider poverty. Yet it is common for people to come to the US to work for a while, but then once they see what American life is like voluntarily return home.
Again, your assumption that Western society and the Western lifestyle is automatically superior to all others is unfounded. You talk about "high standard of living" -- having spent time in another country and can compare how people live, I would say that your measure of "standard of living" does not include such things as community and well-developed social relationships. I can only assume that you are focusing on material goods, which is predictable for someone championing "property".
Although day to day living, people in hunter-gatherer and other types of societies lived in bands of at most about a couple of hundred people, there was far more interaction with neighboring groups than people realize. Trading networks extended over huge geographical areas, and the megalithic culture, I think, shows how complex such societies can really be. This idea that primitive peoples lived in "tribes" isolated from one another is a myth -- do you believe that they were any more isolated than, say, peasants living in Medievel Europe?
At any rate, I agree that true communism is not possible in a world with 6 billion people all squashed together. That is one more reason why I advocate a much, much smaller population.
At any rate, do you have any reason to believe that American society is superior to any others besides your own personal preference? What objective standards do you propose applying to compare them? Are there any objective standards at all? Furthermore, should your own preferences and comfort really justify a system that cannot exist without the povery that exists in your own coutry? Or the exploitation and enforced misery of the majority of the world's population?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by kjsimons, posted 04-12-2005 11:20 AM kjsimons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by kjsimons, posted 04-12-2005 12:33 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 121 (198693)
04-12-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by kjsimons
04-12-2005 12:33 PM


quote:
I wasn't automatically saying that the western lifestyle is superior in any way....
I'll take your word for this. I jumped to that conclusion because ethnocentrism is very, very common, even when people don't realize it.
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quote:
...communism ( get what you need (maybe) no matter what your contribution is to society)...
Actually, all societies try to determine who is a malingerer, and tries to deal with them accordingly.
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quote:
Capitalism is not perfect by any means and it can get quite ugly, but the alternative doesn't seem very attractive either.
Some of us are communists precisely because we feel the "ugliness" is an inherent feature of capitalism. In fact, I would say that it is a myth that capitalism is simply a way of economic organization. It is not only the institutions and organizations that protect the powers and privileges of the elite at the expense of the exploited, but it is also an ideology that convinces that exploited that the system is the "natural" and "just" system.
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quote:
I agree with you that less people would be better for everyone except for those that would be leaving!
Well, I'm not in favor of making anyone leave early. I'd be content to wait for everyone to leave of their own accord. I simply propose limiting the numbers of new guests.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by kjsimons, posted 04-12-2005 12:33 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 121 (198698)
04-12-2005 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by kjsimons
04-12-2005 1:58 PM


quote:
I don't think we can give everything to everyone, there are limits.
That is one of the problem I have with "liberalism". Not only do liberals seem unaware that exploitation and injustice are inherent characteristics of our current society (so cannot be eliminated, nor even alleviated for long with mere "reforms"), but some of them think that in a just world everyone can enjoy what they are accustomed to as an American middle class life style.
I do believe that currently (but not for long, I'm afraid) it is possible to reorganize society so that everyone has at least the basics. And what else does anyone need?
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 04-12-2005 02:26 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by kjsimons, posted 04-12-2005 1:58 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 121 (198714)
04-12-2005 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Alexander
04-12-2005 3:31 PM


quote:
There are only two systems of organization: free market enterprise, and feudalism.
This is false. Most of the indigenous cultures encountered by the European explorers were organized along communist principles. It is believed that our pre-agricultural ancestors organized their societies under communist principles. So the majority of human beings that have ever lived, and the majority of cultures that have existed were neither capitalist nor feudal.

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 Message 30 by Alexander, posted 04-12-2005 3:31 PM Alexander has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 121 (198730)
04-12-2005 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Alexander
04-12-2005 4:05 PM


quote:
That's strange-these perfectly communist societies, where are they today?
Destroyed by rapacious non-communist societies. If your idea of a superior society is one that conquors and destroys the ones around it, then I guess you have a point.
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quote:
So, unless living like Indians is especially appealing, capitalism is eventually required.
Considering that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle practice by many of the Native American groups actually produced a pretty healthy diet for about 3 hours of work each day, I am sure it would appeal to the majority of the world's population that live in poverty under global capitalism.
Or is the point that you, an American who is fabulously wealthy in comparison to the majority of humans that ever existed, don't find living like Indians appealing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Alexander, posted 04-12-2005 4:05 PM Alexander has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Alexander, posted 04-12-2005 4:27 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 121 (198742)
04-12-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by kjsimons
04-12-2005 3:59 PM


quote:
I'm open to serious suggestions on what systems would be better, why they would be better, and how they could be implemented.
That would depend -- what should the "system" be doing?
If one believes that an ideal society is one where everyone lives like middle class Americans, then I don't think that it is possible.
If one believes that an ideal society would allow some people to live like middle class Americans, perhaps at the expense of the well-being of others, then that is what we already have, clearly.
I believe that an ideal society is one that provides everyone with at least the basic necessities of life, including meeting the social needs of its members, and allowing everyone the oppurtunity to provide for their own maintenance. To go further, I would also stress equality and personal autonomy. I also believe that that is possible to achieve but not under a capitalist society.
How do we implement the ideal society? We decide what we think this society would be like, and start moving in that direction. Since I am a socialist, I would institute programs that would encourage worker owned businesses, housing co-ops, and other means of shared resources. As a communist, I would find means of ensuring that people have access to their basic needs independent of their ability to acquire and hold property -- like national health insurance, for a start, and a stronger social welfare safety net. As an anarchist, I would start decentralizing -- have regional, state, and local boards, for example, determine how to implement some of these programs.
Then we see how this works out, and we proceed as we learn what is possible, and what it is that we really want and expect.
I am not a utopian. I have no idea what the perfect society would look like (other than it would be organized along communist principles), nor do I feel that I or anyone else has the right to determine what the ideal society should be, or that I or anyone else should force society in any particular direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by kjsimons, posted 04-12-2005 3:59 PM kjsimons has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 121 (198749)
04-12-2005 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Alexander
04-12-2005 4:27 PM


quote:
I was wondering how long it would take you to poison the well.
Pointing out that posting silly soundbites is does not make a rational discussion is not poisoning the well.
--
quote:
May I point out that on average, a single member of a hunter-gatherer society needs something like ten or twenty times as large an area of land to support their livelihood than does a member of an agriculturally advanced, capitalistic society.
I'm not advocating a hunter-gather society. I was merely pointing out how silly your comment was.
And if you were to actually read the posts in this thread before jumping in and writing silliness, you would see that I am not advocating a return to a hunter gatherer lifestyle.
What is more, if you would have read the posts in this thread before jumping in, you would have read that I find over 6 billion people on this planet problematic, and any solutions to the problem would have to involve decreasing the population.
--
quote:
I would also be interested to know: what exactly is keeping the "majority of the world's population that live in povert under global capitalism" from assuming a hunter-gatherer type existence? Evil capitalists, whomever or wherever they may be?
Pretty much. Remember what happened to the Mossadegh government of Iran, the Arbenz government in Guatamala, or the Allende government of Chile -- overthrown by coups orchestrated by the US government and replaced by brutal pro-US dictatorships.
And the Sandanistas in Nicaragua -- the US bankrolled a violent insurgency by people who had no support among the Nicaraguans (except the wealthy) until the Nicaraguans gave up and elected the candidates favored by the US government.
And let us keep track what happens to the Chavez government in Venezuela.
--
quote:
Your post is a good example of the well-intentioned nonsense that characterizes modern socialism.
Actually, your post is a good example of the willfull ignorance that characterizes American nationalism. But are these snide comments really going to help further the debate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Alexander, posted 04-12-2005 4:27 PM Alexander has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by coffee_addict, posted 04-12-2005 5:03 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 121 (198975)
04-13-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by kjsimons
04-13-2005 1:24 PM


Re: !
Sorry to chime in here -- as you have probably noticed, there are different opinions on what "communism" means. It is possible that my comments may not be relevant to the specific conversation that you are having with jar.
--
quote:
To implement communism on a global scale one would have to erase cultural, national, and religious boundries.
I'm not sure what you mean here. Perhaps you are saying that a homogenization of the world cultures is necessary for communism to succeed? In that case I disagree.
--
quote:
In a communist state what and who would determine what and how much is produced?
First, a "communist state" is an oxymoron.
As far as how a communist society would be organized, that is presently unknown, for a practical reason that it is impossible to just come up with a version of the "ideal communist society" and force everyone else to abide by it. How this would come about would be a process of experimentation on the local level, with the results being adopted by other localities, as well as attempts at organization at a supra-local level.
At any rate, I would expect that in a communist society people would be organized in small groups -- by village, cooperatives, trade unions, communes, or whatever, which would be democratically run. Representatives would be chosen for region councils -- maybe there would councils devoted to specific industries -- there would be larger councils representing larger groups, and so forth.
It would be up the these councils to negotiate within and among themselves as well with the local producers to determine how to allocate resources and responsibility. This would necessarily be complicated, but democracy involving large numbers of people will always be a complicated affair.
--
quote:
If you were trained as an engineer but there was an oversupply of them and an undersupply of janitors, would you be forced to be a janitor?
This is where my vision of communism differs from others. There will indeed be some specialization. However, what determines people's specialization now? From watching my own friends, that is determined largely by the individuals' interests.
In my opinion, there would not be such a high degree of specialization. Instead of "line workers" who's reponsibility is to just use one machine to perform one small task, you would see a return of craftmanship, where any individual worker will have a larger role in the entire product.
Positions of authority and responsibility would be filled by some combination of election and rotation.
Dreary jobs of drudgery would be shared by everyone -- as a college professor, even I would have to take my turn to scrub out the toilets (although, in a more realistic less-that-ideal communist society, we professor may make the students do it -- to build character, don't you know).
And of course some people would be clearly unsuited for some tasks, some better suited, and some people may have preferences -- there are some "drudge" jobs, such as laundry, that I don't mind -- maybe I would end up doing more than my "fair share" of the laundry (if the laundry was done communally).
--
In my opinion, and again this is where I differ from some other socialists, all associations would be voluntary. If you don't like the way the commune is run, leave for a better run cooperative. If you feel that the regional council is unresponsive to your legitimate needs, then your local council can withdraw and join another organization.
This would not be an efficient system, if efficiency is measured by maximizing the total number of consumer products that can be produced by a small amount of resources. But if that is the chosen measure of efficiency, then why should we discuss leaving capitalism to begin with?
My preferred measure of "efficiency" would not only include a more equitable distribution of resources (both social and material), but also a higher "quality of life" where people are more content and satisfied with what they have and what they are able to achieve.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by kjsimons, posted 04-13-2005 1:24 PM kjsimons has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-14-2005 5:47 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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