Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Tired Light
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 301 of 309 (199009)
04-13-2005 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by peaceharris
04-13-2005 5:21 AM


Re: In your opinion....?
I agree, Eta was out of line, and I called him on it. I actually thought I could see the Lyman Beta lines while eyeballing the diagrams, but I agree they're very subtle, much more subtle than the Lyman Alpha lines.
But I have the same question as Eta. Why are you so hot to prove the supposedly shifted spectra are incomplete? This isn't as bad as trying to prove a flat earth, but it's close. It's only a Doppler-type effect, after all, hardly anything startling or revolutionary. Even Halton Arp, the arch enemy of red shift, accepts that the spectra are all there. Why do you care so much? Do complete spectra have some kind of critical implication that hasn't been mentioned yet?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by peaceharris, posted 04-13-2005 5:21 AM peaceharris has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 304 by peaceharris, posted 04-13-2005 10:12 PM Percy has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 302 of 309 (199024)
04-13-2005 5:54 PM


We're at the witching hour folk.
We're over 300 messages in this thread now. Can I get one of you to summarize where things stand so far and start a continuation thread?
For Peace, this is no reflection on you but when thread get over 300 messages we like to close them and if there is more still to be said then we can always continue in a new thread.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Percy, posted 04-13-2005 6:05 PM AdminJar has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 303 of 309 (199030)
04-13-2005 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by AdminJar
04-13-2005 5:54 PM


Re: We're at the witching hour folk.
The most significant discussion in this long thread was between Sylas and Lyndon Ashmore. My view is that Sylas posted correct and useful scientific information in post after post while Lyndon made error after error and gradually descended into unintelligibility and finally ceased posting, after taking the obligatory parting shots, of course. Lyndon was resourceful in rebuttal, raising a variety of counterarguments that had to be carefully addressed, but once the correct information was out there his arguments were often revealed to be wrong or red herrings. His theory isn't as bad as perpetual motion machines, but it's close!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by AdminJar, posted 04-13-2005 5:54 PM AdminJar has not replied

peaceharris
Member (Idle past 5587 days)
Posts: 128
Joined: 03-28-2005


Message 304 of 309 (199094)
04-13-2005 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by Percy
04-13-2005 5:15 PM


Re: In your opinion....?
Percy writes:
Why are you so hot to prove the supposedly shifted spectra are incomplete? This isn't as bad as trying to prove a flat earth, but it's close. It's only a Doppler-type effect, after all, hardly anything startling or revolutionary.
I have no problem believing small redshifts and small blueshifts, Doppler effect due to relative motion. But I find it hard to believe that space can expand, infact I'm certain that it can't.
But what I'm not sure about is whether such spectra really exist. I have been reasonable in my requests. I have requested only for Hydrogen lines and have ignored the other elements. This is because Hydrogen is the most abundant element in our universe and by constraining ourselves only to Hydrogen, there is only 1 parameter to play with... Z. If we are allowed to choose the element as well as choose Z, there is a bit too much freedom.
If there is an object with lots of Hydrogen redshifted by z=1, the lines of the Balmer series, as well as the Lyman -alpha line should be visible by the HST. If there is no 'Lyman alpha forest', the Lyman beta line should be visible too.
Someone who can give me the data I request, should create the continuation thread.
Changed in edit:
I just checked the HST manual and found out that all the lines of the Balmer series can be seen for an object with z=1
NICMOS
This message has been edited by peaceharris, 04-13-2005 09:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Percy, posted 04-13-2005 5:15 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by Eta_Carinae, posted 04-13-2005 11:02 PM peaceharris has not replied

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4365 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 305 of 309 (199105)
04-13-2005 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by peaceharris
04-13-2005 10:12 PM


Re: In your opinion....?
I gave you many examples. The ones at lower (1-1.5 z) showed the Balmer lines.
I also provided one with the Paschen Alpha and Beta.
You have been told many times that you aren't going to get the Balmer lines at z=3 or 4 due to the Earths atmosphere.
How can you claim the other elements give more parameters. THEY CONSTRAIN the problem even better. They are not fee parameters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by peaceharris, posted 04-13-2005 10:12 PM peaceharris has not replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 306 of 309 (199109)
04-13-2005 11:15 PM


Get your last comments in folk or PNT.
It's that time again. Closing this evening.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4365 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 307 of 309 (199112)
04-13-2005 11:25 PM


Here is H Beta and H Gamma of a Z=3.8 quasar
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/9705/9705075.pdf
As can be seen if you read the paper - this is not an eay observation to get because if the redshift is not quite in the right area then - AS I HAVE SAID ALL ALONG - the lines fall out of an observable region.

Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4365 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 308 of 309 (199114)
04-13-2005 11:29 PM


Here is a composite of z=1 to 2 quasars
showing the Balmer lines.
pdf file with data
Edited by AdminJar to shorten link. Please use coding around links to keep the display at a reasonable width
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 04-13-2005 09:32 PM

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 309 of 309 (199115)
04-13-2005 11:34 PM


Okay, Peace's last request has been answered.
If there is more discussion needed, please start a new PNT.
Closing down. My thanks to all who participated.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024