Organized Religion & personal Spirituality

LKets not get carried away with the cultural absolutism bit here. We can be confident that Islamic governments enjoy widespread consent from their Islamic populaces; it is entirely unremarkable to see them order their society accordingly. Just as we do.The fact that our property system is a system of theft does not prevent us from enforcing and normalising it. We do not, or choose not to, see it as theft but instead as just and proper and normal.Of course thats my perception. How can I be free in the "liberal" west when its laws and processess are established top protect property? This is an inherently unfree society.The point is, not theory of living together, one might say, can do anything other than implement its own rules. It is inevitable that people who adhere to different philosophies chafe under those rules. But it is 100% pointless to compare "freedoms" based on different perceptions of what freedom is, or to what uise it should be put.

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We do separate authorities in the U.S., its called checks and balances, and it’s a great way to keep tyrants from having absolute power, what would your one authority do when a person rises to the top, changes hats, and then no one has the power to oppose them?

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We do separate authorities in the U.S., its called checks and balances, and it’s a great way to keep tyrants from having absolute power, what would your one authority do when a person rises to the top, changes hats, and then no one has the power to oppose them?

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What are you going tyo do about your homicidal liar president?Its pointless having checks and balances when you don't exercise them.-Frankly this thread should just be closed, and I ask the administratotors to do so. It is becomeing a venue for nothing more than Islamaphobic ranting of the same kind of self-righteous hysteria that lead to the recent invasion.

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The thread is about Spirituality and NOT politics, Contra.

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Really? Becuase it seems to me to consist of a bunch of people telling a Muslim that they feel they are superior. It does not appear to be about spirituality at all, but Muslim-baiting.

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We have "venues" in this country. They are called Freedom of Speech.

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Why is your country relevant or important? And, if speech is so free, why should I not speak freely here?

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Actually it's a bunch of people who are a bit miffed that a Muslim feels so superior that he has the right to impose his "ways" on other people whether they like it or not.

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You mean, like the West and its mission to "spread democracy" by force? Or its previous incarnation, the British Empire and its "civilising mission"?You appear to have lost perspective. A Muslim gave you a cogent explanation of the princiepls on which their society is organised, and unsruprisingly, considers these principoles to be good ones. The respondants have consistently ATTRIBUTED totally unwarranted malice to his argument.Of course any good muslim wants the US to be a muslim state - wouldn't you want the best for your fellow humans?And these reponses have NOT shown recognition at all of differences of opinion, but have merely shouted you are wrong and tyrrannical. Its been an excellent demonstration of the utter hypocrisy of Western liberalism, hounoured as it is only in the breach.

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The next time someone starts arguing in favor of a Christian theocracy, and the exact same arguments that are in this thread start appearing, I hope you'll show up and tell everyone that they're just Christian-baiting.

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And if they are baiting, instead of arguing or discussing, I certainly will.

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Largely because IANAT began this argument by condemning the separation of church and state in the western world (post 5), then narrowed his focus to the supposed lack of moral control in the USA.

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Yes, so? Was your patriotic nerve hit such that you had to come out of your corner swinging and frothing at the mouth? Was it not possible to simply argue the opposite case and present your opinion instead of leaping to accusations of tyranny?

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So yes, it would seem that the relative merits of US law, specifically the first amendment, are fairly relevant to the conversation at hand.

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I cannot see why - I'm confident IANAT would advance EXACTLY the same criticism of the UK, or France, or whatever.

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Does anyone think that Islamic fundamentalism is intrinsically less linked to Capitalism than is American Fundamentalism?

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I think thats quite complicated. As a Patriarchal system, I think Islam defends what is essentially a Mercanilist mode of production as inherent and normal and moral. This is mostly implemented through the "family busines", as an expression of filial piety, respect for elders, and family unity.In that it is cognate with the complex that combines "family values" and the "morality of capitalism" into a single political nexus.

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The issue is linked. You have talked before of the need for a national consciousness. It is as close to spirituality as you get, yet I can feel the passion from an atheist such as you, Contra.

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Ah, well the idea, and arguably the coining, of "consciousness" in this context is very important to Marxism. That is, society structures itself through signs, symbols, conventions and statements of proper behaviour or morality into a worldview that is shared by most members of that society. The capitalist worldview contains the trope "every man for himself and devil take the hindmost", of which I disaprove. Most, say, village lifestyles, sometimes even in the developed west, include the trope "we are all us", to steal a trope from a game, of which I do approve.My criticism of religion in this regard is, once again, that its a world view based on veneration of ancient texts and ancient thinkers, rather than a clear-eyed analysis of the real world we live in.

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Perhaps he would. However, the country he did lob the accusation at was the US, specifically referring to a clause in the US Constitution. In other words, he began a conversation about US law, and now for some reason, you have a problem with people responding by talking about... US law.

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Well of course he did, becuase people go "well I'm an AMERICAN" (cue national anthem "and in AMERICA we are free" (flag in soft focus) "unlike you barbarians."So, umm "duh".

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So no, I still don't see how US law is irrelevant when responding to a criticism of US law.

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"we do it differently" is not a criticism, idiot.

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Perhaps I read more into IANAT's posts than was warranted. I didn't read it as merely advocating a way of organizing society -- I read the implication that an Islamic state also have coercive police power to enforce certain behaviors, even when not in themselves disruptive to the well-being of others, even when a significant fraction of the population doesn't agree with the ruling elite's determination of what constitutes proper Islamic "ways". That is what I am arguing against.

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Which the west does as well. Western states use coercive police powers to enforce property rights even when a sigfnificant fraction of the population does not agree with the ruling elite.Pot <> Kettle.

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Stop the personal attacks immediately. You have been warned in another thread, as well.

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and I told you that the administrators have lost the credibility to declaim such judgements.

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Continue and you will have earned a revocation of posting privileges.

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Hear No Evil, eh?

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We may have lost credibility(at least in your eyes) but we have the authority.

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You do not have authority. You merely have power.

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And show Schraff a little respect! She puts up with us, after all!

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Schraff doesn't respect engineers, why should I respect her?Edit: I point out further that if you had been doing your job adequately my intervention would not have been required.This message has been edited by contracycle, 04-14-2005 04:49 AM

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You agreed to abide by when you signed up to participate in this forum. The rules exist for everyone, not everyone except contracycle.

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Then apply them consistently. Respect for IANAT was not demonstrated and what did you do? Bugger all. Twiddled your thimbs.As I told you, you don't have sufficient credibility to impose such "discipline". All you have is power, like any bully. You may do what you wish, as I have no power.C'est le guerre.

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Fortunately for all of us, Contracycle here was willing to step up to the plate.

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Thats right.After all, authority is merely social, not factual. Anyone can step on up.And I do NOT see why you should get away with abuse merely because the nominal admins give their tacit consent.

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Well, it's only fair. After all, I still don't see why US law is irrelevant to a conversation about US law. And I asked you that ages ago.

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Very disapointing. Let me ask you this: why do Yanks think that everything is About Them Personally?