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Author Topic:   Organized Religion & personal Spirituality
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 130 (197260)
04-06-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by IANAT
04-06-2005 12:49 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
Submission and obedience to Allah is the challenge of this life, which is just a stepping stone.
Funny, I am reminded of that scene at the beginning of Yellowbeard, where Cheech and Chong play privateers, Tommy Chong being the religious leader of the ship. Cheech remarks what a lot of treasure they have captured for the king. Chong asks whether it is better to please the king or God, and Cheech replies that, of course, it is better to please God. Then Chong asks who God's representative is, and Cheech replies, "You are." Then Chong remarks: "Well, God wants to keep it all!"
The problem of submission and obedience to Allah is that it always seems to end up being submission and obedience to those who claim to speak for Allah.
The problem you are having with America does not stem from our "cafeteria religion" -- the problem is our submission and obedience to the Flag, which really means submission and obedience to those who claim to speak for the Flag.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by IANAT, posted 04-06-2005 12:49 PM IANAT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by IANAT, posted 04-06-2005 2:32 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 130 (197278)
04-06-2005 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by IANAT
04-06-2005 2:32 PM


Re: upside down
Is someone forcing you to watch porn? Is someone forcing you to march in a "homosexual" parade? It sounds like you want other people to leave you alone, but you aren't willing to leave your neighbors alone. Sounds a tad hypocritical to me. But I guess you are allowed when you know the one true faith. (Yes, I know that the followers of strict, fundamentalists faiths will take exception to this, but what do you expect from us atheists and cafeteria religionists?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by IANAT, posted 04-06-2005 2:32 PM IANAT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by mick, posted 04-06-2005 3:20 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 130 (197482)
04-07-2005 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by IANAT
04-07-2005 2:08 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
An Islamic state may require certain ways....
That's what worries us. We get worried about these "ways" that might be required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by IANAT, posted 04-07-2005 2:08 PM IANAT has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 130 (197504)
04-07-2005 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Silent H
04-07-2005 4:04 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
So you believe that if my friends outnumber you, then it would be fine if we fix your immoral practices and make sure you practice the moral action of openmindedness, including forcing you to watch porn and attend gay marches at least once a year (or watch one season of Queer Eye).
No, I don't think that's what he's saying at all. I think he's saying that he should be allowed to get together with Muslims who think exactly like he does and Christians who think exactly like he does and Jews who think exactly like he does to force people who do not think exactly like he does to behave in the manner he and his moral clones think is proper.
Does that just about sum it up, IANAT? Or did I leave out the interesting methods of coercion that you might have in mind?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Silent H, posted 04-07-2005 4:04 PM Silent H has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 130 (197723)
04-08-2005 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
04-08-2005 3:34 PM


upside down, not rightside up
Oh, come on, jar. What's the point of having a religion if you're going to actually follow the teachings? You know the point of having a religion is to justify your a priori held social/political/moral beliefs. (This is meant to be sarcasm -- no offense intended toward your own sincere religous beliefs.)

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 Message 35 by jar, posted 04-08-2005 3:34 PM jar has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 130 (198084)
04-10-2005 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by IANAT
04-10-2005 1:15 PM


Re: upside down
quote:
I have no idea where they get morals, other than from the Golden Rule.
What more is there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by IANAT, posted 04-10-2005 1:15 PM IANAT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by crashfrog, posted 04-10-2005 1:44 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 130 (198312)
04-11-2005 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Dan Carroll
04-11-2005 11:23 AM


Re: upside down
Nor should IANAT's Islamic way of life hold sway over other people who just happen to live within the same the artificially constructed national borders that IANAT does, whether they are non-Islamic or whether they have a view of Islam different than IANAT's.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-11-2005 11:23 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 130 (198518)
04-12-2005 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by contracycle
04-12-2005 6:58 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
Becuase it seems to me to consist of a bunch of people telling a Muslim that they feel they are superior.
Actually it's a bunch of people who are a bit miffed that a Muslim feels so superior that he has the right to impose his "ways" on other people whether they like it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by contracycle, posted 04-12-2005 6:58 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by StormWolfx2x, posted 04-12-2005 1:38 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 97 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 6:39 AM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 130 (198946)
04-13-2005 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by contracycle
04-13-2005 6:39 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
A Muslim gave you a cogent explanation of the princiepls on which their society is organised, and unsruprisingly, considers these principoles to be good ones.
Perhaps I read more into IANAT's posts than was warranted. I didn't read it as merely advocating a way of organizing society -- I read the implication that an Islamic state also have coercive police power to enforce certain behaviors, even when not in themselves disruptive to the well-being of others, even when a significant fraction of the population doesn't agree with the ruling elite's determination of what constitutes proper Islamic "ways". That is what I am arguing against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 6:39 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-13-2005 11:51 AM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 109 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:02 AM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 130 (199375)
04-14-2005 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by contracycle
04-14-2005 5:02 AM


Re: Focus Factors
quote:
Which the west does as well.
And I have criticized the use of coercive police power by Western governments to enforce arbitrarily chosen social norms. Especially social norms that reinforce the powers and privileges of the ruling elite. Especially the enforcement of property rights over the right to a decent standard of life. I just don't feel that I need to include a detailed list of every single criticism I have of every single individual or institutions in every single post that I right.
And you are a enough of a regular member to recognize that most of the people who have criticized IANAT in this thread have also been very vocal in their criticisms of the US government and US society over the same issues. I don't think the charges of hypocrisy are entirely appropriate.
Edited to add:
In fact, this particular exchange began when IANAT decided to criticize American society for its lack of morality, blaming it on atheism and "cafeteria religion". While there is much for which to criticize the US, I do not believe that the specific charges that IANAT brought up are valid ones. And since he himself thinks that his Islamic state is a worthy model to emulate, criticisms of his model are appropriate.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 04-14-2005 04:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by contracycle, posted 04-14-2005 5:02 AM contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by contracycle, posted 04-15-2005 7:41 AM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 130 (199549)
04-15-2005 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by contracycle
04-15-2005 7:41 AM


Will someone please read my post #122?
I just cannot convince myself that contracycle has actually read my post. Could a third party please read our posts and explain to me how contracycle's post is a response to mine? I cannot see any substantial disagreement between our posts on any single point, except that I conclude that criticism of IANAT is appropriate and he does not.
Edited to correct a typo.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 04-15-2005 08:57 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by contracycle, posted 04-15-2005 7:41 AM contracycle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by nator, posted 04-15-2005 6:21 PM Chiroptera has not replied

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