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Author Topic:   SIMPLE Astronomical Evidence Supports the Bible
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 7 of 197 (199168)
04-14-2005 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ptolemy
04-13-2005 9:13 PM


Spot the key words folks!
shows tiny blue objects arching out as though ejected from the center.
...and the keywords are 'as though'.
In other words we have someones idea of what such a thing would look like despite the fact they really have no clue as to what such an ejection would appear.
Tell me, what smooth-particle hydrodynamic simulations of these proto galaxies have you previously performed that produce objects with these properties? I'd appreciate the references to your simulations.
As evidence this makes hearsay seem like a signed confession.
This message has been edited by Eta_Carinae, 04-14-2005 05:51 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ptolemy, posted 04-13-2005 9:13 PM ptolemy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ptolemy, posted 04-14-2005 2:24 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

  
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 106 of 197 (200663)
04-20-2005 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by ptolemy
04-14-2005 2:24 PM


I haven't read this thread BUT...
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ptolemy writes:
What we see in at the greatest distance is how they were and what is close is how they are. I accept what we see as valid. Why do scientists populate the universe with more than 90% undetectable things? They are faced with paradoxes that don’t fit their primary assumption, their arche, so they must invent undetectable things to explain away what is visible.
For example, galaxies are paradoxical. The stars apparently orbit at about the same speed without regard to distance from the center. In the solar system, the earth orbits at ~30 km/sec. Uranus which is 19 times farther, (19 AU), rotates at 30 / (19), about 7 km/sec, so the earth laps Uranus 84 times for its one orbit. That this relationship does not work in galaxies is visibly evident, especially in spiral galaxies. The arms of a spiral galaxy are connected back to the hub with gas linkages and streams of stars as though they were ejected. http://imgsrc.hubblesite.org/.../43/images/a/formats/web.jpg
However, ejections would demand some sort of fundamental change. Astronomers explain this visible phenomena with invisible density waves for which there is not a shred of visible evidence. Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions More than ten times the Old Testament mentions the continuous spreading of the heavens. The simple visible evidence fits exactly what the grammar of the text says.
Thomas Kuhn, the historian of Scientific Revolutions, explained that science is a system that shares a common paradigm and the evidence is seen from that perspective. What is the most basic assumption of science? Peter says the first thing to know (what is first in precedence and rank) is the arche of the last days. He explains their arche as all things diamenei. That little Greek word means they think things remain the same in relation.
Perhaps you think, how could matter change as a relationship when we measure constants? Yet constants are always associated with things that change as a relationship, like mechanical or chemical equilibria. The constants are not an indication that things are not changing, but that billions of reactions in one direction are balanced by billions in the other and the whole process can shift as a relationship. The reason the constants do change is because they are defined in terms of the whole shifting relationship. The light from the most distant stars shows that matter has shifted as a relationship. May I suggest that you look up the twice repeated Greek together-words that Paul uses to explain the corruption of all creation. (Romans 8:19 - 22). Things that change as a relationship are interconnected in complex ways, they change-together.
Posts like I quoted above should come with an appropriate government health warning - and what is more - reminds me of why I shouldn't get on the internet.
Does ptolemy not realise the other observed consequences of his absurd model of ejections from the galactic bulge???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ptolemy, posted 04-14-2005 2:24 PM ptolemy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by ptolemy, posted 04-20-2005 9:26 PM Eta_Carinae has replied
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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 120 of 197 (201088)
04-22-2005 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by ptolemy
04-20-2005 9:26 PM


I'm going to say this in a short and to the point matter
Please get out your calculator and calculate the energy necessary to eject something the mass of the Large Magellanic Cloud from the bulge of the Milky Way to it's present locale.
Then tell me what mechanism can provide such energy without wholesale disruption of the entire galaxy?

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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 132 of 197 (201519)
04-23-2005 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ptolemy
04-23-2005 1:54 PM


Interesting
ptolemy writes:
It is when they try to make mathematical theories that they always fail.
You are correct in this but you made in your original post a physics claim that with a pocket calculator can be shown as absurd. Namely, the ejection of something like the LMC from the Milky Way bulge. I challenged you earlier to get out your calculator but you never replied.
So Creationists fail and you ignore. Isn't it any small wonder that they get little note.
Physics is a can do science. You either can do or you cannot and statements you made make me think (nay know) that you are just wishful thinking about galaxy structure so as to ally it with some vague Scriptural reference.
This message has been edited by Eta_Carinae, 04-23-2005 02:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 152 of 197 (201628)
04-23-2005 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by ptolemy
04-23-2005 10:12 PM


Venusian orbit change?
I smell a Velikhovsky in the air.
On a serious note - there's a lot of crap flying in this thread. Would you inform us the mechanism for a proposed historical difference in the orbit of Venus?
Why do I even ask?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by ptolemy, posted 04-23-2005 10:12 PM ptolemy has replied

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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 160 of 197 (201637)
04-24-2005 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by ptolemy
04-24-2005 12:17 AM


Complete nonsense.
If matter is a relationship - for which there is ample quantum evidence
Makes no sense, just stringing words together.
If the relationship shifts - and all the light from primordial galaxies is shifted
Then matter could be a deteriorating - aging relationship. It would be like a shifting equilibrium.
Rubbish. Again you're just stringing words together but the statements have no meaning.
Because we have invented laws and constants based on the assumption of changelessness - we cannot imagine that matter could decay. The Apostle Paul wrote that the whole creation phthora [degenerates - corrupts]
The 'assumption' as you call it can be tested. Upper limits on the changes in fundamental constants can be measured. That's not assumption it's fact.
There is no way to propose a causal reason why the solar system would increase in size if atoms are not perpetual motion machines. The cause would be fundamental, and you can’t break it down into a higher level of specificity.
Codswallop! That's just cop out metaphysical claptrap.
The Bible twice states that the earth also continually increases in size - for which there is simple evidence. Again there is no way to precisely define why - if the cause is fundamental. Why? Matter is fundamental to everything.
WTF!!!! What 'simple evidence'???????
It seems to me you talk in riddles and nonsense so as to negate being pinned down on specifics.
The ancients spoke of close encounters
The Bible seems to record one
The ancients mention a planet shattering
The Bible uses almost identical language and that God saved the world from chaos.
You know this nonsense wouldn't occur if people didn't blindly follow the musings of Bronze Age goat herders in the Middle East.
As hard as we try - we cannot imagine that matter can change - shift as a relationship. Yet the universe is full of evidence of such change. It is easier to invent a fictitious universe made of undetectable things than to question one’s first principle.
Huh? This really makes no sense whatsoever. The changes I think you are meaning would be manifest. They'd be so obvious as to destroy physics as we know it. This isn't seen.

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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 168 of 197 (201757)
04-24-2005 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
04-24-2005 11:56 AM


Er.....
2 points.
I'm not an engineer so I've nothing to do with the space programme.
I wasn't criticisng the spiritual side of things - if such a thing exists. I was criticisng the forcing of scientific facts into the goat herder musings.
In other words, the goat herder metaphors shouldn't be taken as literal scientific fact.

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Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 174 of 197 (202237)
04-25-2005 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ptolemy
04-25-2005 2:16 PM


You don't actually put stock in this do you?
By the way:
When our symbolic system is applied to the most distant sky - we have to invent undetectable things to make our mathematical laws fit what is visible.
When does observation of the light emitted have any more validity than the gravitatiional effect?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ptolemy, posted 04-25-2005 2:16 PM ptolemy has replied

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 Message 177 by ptolemy, posted 04-25-2005 8:24 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

  
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 182 of 197 (202525)
04-26-2005 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by ptolemy
04-25-2005 8:24 PM


I'll bow out of this one I think.
ptolemy, you are quite simply deluded. You are stringing words together for display and not meaning.
What you write is complete scientific bunkum.
You postulate things about the universe that can be categorically ruled out at the zeroth order level.
I notice you produce not one calculation. Not a single number to be pinned down upon. You are empty of facts.
1 The earliest people could build great megaliths. The Egyptians left records that only a few thousand skilled workers built the pyramids.
2 Dinosaurs that should not be able to stretch out their long necks, left tracks in soft clays showing that they could run.
3 Primordial galaxies often look tiny - and even show visible evidence of ejections.
4 Every spiral galaxy is a gravitational anomaly. Yet we can visibly see gas streams that connect their arms back to the core as though they were ejected.
5 All the ancients, including the Bible, mention things in the solar sytem that make no sense at all using our laws of gravity.
Please get out your calculator and justify #4.
Physics, like all the sciences, eventually comes down to the fact you can either do it or you cannot. I don't think you can. You never provide a single calculation to be tied down to. It's all some artsy fartsy vague language and total off the wall craziness.
Where's the meat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ptolemy, posted 04-25-2005 8:24 PM ptolemy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ptolemy, posted 04-26-2005 12:43 PM Eta_Carinae has replied

  
Eta_Carinae
Member (Idle past 4395 days)
Posts: 547
From: US
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 189 of 197 (202939)
04-27-2005 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by ptolemy
04-26-2005 12:43 PM


You know, it is a well known fact in psychology
that the best delusions are ones that are circular in nature. You have set yourself up a grand delusion.
There is no falsifiable or predictive aspect to it. You can weasel out of any criticism because the whole framework rests on disregarding any outside evidence and at the same time not needing to provide any yourself.
This allows no debate. As I have said several times - what you have got are sentences with words you don't understand and phrases whose implications you don't follow.
The only thing I will remind you of - is that conventional physics has explanatory power, it makes predictions that are subject to experiment and/or observation - what you have put forth not only doesn't do this; by definition it cannot do this.
It's metaphysical claptrap bordering upon a solipsism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ptolemy, posted 04-26-2005 12:43 PM ptolemy has replied

Replies to this message:
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