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Author Topic:   Why Belief?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 61 of 220 (203984)
04-30-2005 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Hangdawg13
04-30-2005 4:08 PM


Dawg Daze------------Why Belief?
Hangdawg-Sur Tre`s! How ya doing? Fancy running into you in a thread entitled "Why Belief"?
13 writes:
I investigated (Buddhism) from the skeptical viewpoint that it was actually just as invalid as Christianity.
Any religious persona is basically limiting and shallow. Shiny Happy Jesus People are shallow if they are personifying an image that they believe that they should be. Many famous Hollywood celebrities, used to public persona, became Buddhists and made sure that everyone knew about it!
I am known as a person whom always has useful advice for troubled friends. My advice is not based on psychology, nor educated counsel,but is a combination of spiritual impartation and life experience. I was skeptical of Christianity because I was skeptical that a living Christ could exist within me. Now that I know Him, my belief is strong and secure.
Everyone wants me to "prove" it to them. All that I can really say is for them to get to know me. If they know me, they will soon know the One who sent me.
I am not religious, though. Just your typical terrorist!

"How we spend our days is, of course, how we spend our lives."-- Anne Dillard
Every tool carries with it the spirit by which it had been created.
-- Werner Karl Heisenberg: (1901-1976) German physicist
I read the newspaper avidly. It is my one form of continuous fiction.
-- Aneurin Bevan: (1897-1960) English politician

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Hangdawg13, posted 04-30-2005 4:08 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Hangdawg13, posted 04-30-2005 10:17 PM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 62 of 220 (204018)
04-30-2005 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Phat
04-30-2005 11:28 AM


Re: Buddhalicious
quote:
Are you a Buddhist, Schraff? Or are you merely presenting a rhetorical argument?
No, not a Buddhist, although Buddhism is probably the only religion I could even come close to embracing. I think the Eightfold Path is a fine way to live; much more focused upon improving oneself instead of arrogantly trying to "save" everyone else, and it seems to also just make a lot of sense. However, the whole "we should work towards detachment and reduce our desire" thing seems too against human nature to really be completely healthy.
quote:
Actually, No. My definition of belief is as an absolute. For me to think otherwise is something that I toy with, but I can not elevate my own intellectual judgement above my belief, as you have done.
As an Agnostic, I enjoy complete freedom to actually investigate all religions and worldviews equally without any existing religious filters.
quote:
You can speak of humanity as being subject to the laws of physics yet the stumbling block in your mind refuses to acknowledge that humanity is subject to the laws of god.
What makes you think you know what the laws of god are?
I know what the laws of physics are, and anyone can learn and observe them.
Clearly, the physical laws are much, much more universal that any human perception of god's law. For that matter, how do you know the laws of physics aren't the laws of god?
Also, which god?
quote:
To be correct, what you should say is that YOU do not need a deity to bestow blessings upon YOURSELF.
What's stopping you from bestowing blessings upon yourself and others?
Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to (the meaning of life)?
quote:
And why do you believe that your logic is enlightened and absolute enough to tell others that they do not need a deity in their life?
First of all, I never said they didn't need a deity in their life, and I never said I thought my logic was enlightened, nor absolute.
Second, I believe it was you who just said this to me:
quote:
the stumbling block in your mind refuses to acknowledge that humanity is subject to the laws of god.
So maybe you should be asking yourself the question you just asked me, eh?
Anyway, one objection to Buddhism that dawg had was that it didn't anwer the "meaning of life" question, and I simply asked the question above, "Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to the meaning of life"?
I think it is a good question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Phat, posted 04-30-2005 11:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 05-01-2005 8:52 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 63 of 220 (204019)
04-30-2005 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by mike the wiz
04-30-2005 11:40 AM


Just because you have difficulty with ambiguity doesn't mean the universe is obligated to indulge your discomfort
quote:
It is obligated to indulge his disconfort if it is responsible for making him, as you claim, lil miss naturalist.
No, not really.
quote:
Since his ego exists, and he thinks therefore he is a persona, these questions become weighty.
You are under the mistaken impression, perhaps, that the universe is sentient or something?
His "weighty thoughts" are simply a consequence of a big, complex brain capable of abstract thought, especially extrapolation into the future, and consciousness.
Our evolution also gave us the consequence of being mostly hairless. Does that mean the universe is "obligated" to always provide us with the means to clothe and warm ourselves?
Hardly. The universe owes us nothing.
quote:
Can he just be a product of random reduction pertaining to kulling traits?
I don't even know what this means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by mike the wiz, posted 04-30-2005 11:40 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 64 of 220 (204021)
04-30-2005 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Phat
04-30-2005 4:36 PM


Re: Dawg Daze------------Why Belief?
Hangdawg-Sur Tre`s! How ya doing?
Grrrreat... even better once finals are over.
I understand the sort of personal experiential verification of the Christian beliefs that you are talking about. I've experienced it too.
I hope you understood that when I said:
I investigated (Buddhism) from the skeptical viewpoint that it was actually just as invalid as Christianity.
I didn't mean that I still view Christianity as invalid. I now believe very much in Christ and his power in my life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Phat, posted 04-30-2005 4:36 PM Phat has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 65 of 220 (204037)
05-01-2005 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Hangdawg13
04-30-2005 4:08 PM


Thanks for your.... reply? Weird... somehow your message got pasted into mine. Anyways...
I enjoyed your post, dawg. Don't agree with all of it, of course , but it was interesting and enjoyable, thanks.
Thanks
Because there isn't.
"What would I have been like as an adult if I hadn't been abused as a child?"
"What would my life be like if I hadn't gotten married 12 years ago?"
"What would it be like to live for 300 years?"
"What would it be like to have been raised in Ecuador?"
I could go on, but...
You have a point here. Unless there are an infinite of realities, then "what if things had been different" is a nonsensical meaningless question. So let's say that the entire set of meaningful questions must have answers, and we cannot always know which questions are meaningful or not nor can we always understand the answers to the meaningful ones. So... we agree... only I trust in some information that you do not so you believe a few questions are still unanswerable while I believe they have already been answered.
The thing is, dawg, that buddhism has been around at least as long as Christianity, and even though your point that Christianity has love as a central theme, it seems to me that the actions of buddhists have been much more loving than the actions of christians in the last 2000 years, by a long shot.
Well, no true scotsman would ever start a war in the name of Christianity... er... you know what I mean.
So, Christianity seems to preach a lot about love but it has been Buddhism which has actually practiced it.
I agree. It's sad really. In fact, if I were a conspiracy theorist I would say it is undeniable that there must be some kind of unseen conspiracy going on here. I mean there's always been someone: Pharisee, pastor, pope, king, crusader, false prophet, communist, fascist Islamist, president, or television producer going to great lengths exercising his power to keep the masses that are called by Christ's name from actually getting His message. I don't know if you have ever had any friends that have beaten the conspiracy and actually got the message and followed it, but I can testify that when the message gets through and finds open ears and hearts it does change lives for the better with love. Debating on this site and doubting Christianity has actually helped me to see through all the lies and hypocritical teachings and into the true message of Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Hangdawg13, posted 04-30-2005 4:08 PM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 8:08 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 66 of 220 (204065)
05-01-2005 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Hangdawg13
05-01-2005 1:27 AM


Crap. I think I know what happened.
I must have hit the "edit" button instead of "reply" and since I am an admin...
Anyway, I'm so sorry about that! Now that it's happened I will be more aware and be much more careful. I didn't realize that clicking on the edit button would automatically pop us into admin mode.
I have nothing to argue with you about in your post, dawg.
(It's a first, I know. )
I really do see a change in you, BTW. Much less strident, much more...relaxed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-01-2005 1:27 AM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-02-2005 12:59 AM nator has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 67 of 220 (204072)
05-01-2005 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by nator
04-30-2005 9:55 PM


Re: Why Belief?
Schraff---I am about to find out where the rubber meets the road in regard to my beliefs. I have type 2 diabetes...have had it for several years, actually. My lifestyle has been steadily declining. I know what I should eat and how I should live, but I have been oddly undisciplined and defiant at discipling myself to make any changes.
Yes..I have prayed about it...but I am to a point of despair. I am at a point where not changing means bad consequences. And yet I cannot pull away from the cliff edge!
In my mind, prayer...and God...are all that can rescue me. I am unimpressed with psychologists. What would you do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by nator, posted 04-30-2005 9:55 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 9:56 AM Phat has replied
 Message 69 by sidelined, posted 05-01-2005 12:37 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 70 by Monk, posted 05-01-2005 2:46 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 88 by lfen, posted 05-06-2005 11:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 68 of 220 (204080)
05-01-2005 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
05-01-2005 8:52 AM


Re: Why Belief?
quote:
Schraff---I am about to find out where the rubber meets the road in regard to my beliefs. I have type 2 diabetes...have had it for several years, actually. My lifestyle has been steadily declining. I know what I should eat and how I should live, but I have been oddly undisciplined and defiant at discipling myself to make any changes.
Yes..I have prayed about it...but I am to a point of despair. I am at a point where not changing means bad consequences. And yet I cannot pull away from the cliff edge!
In my mind, prayer...and God...are all that can rescue me. I am unimpressed with psychologists. What would you do?
Gosh, I am sorry to hear that.
What can I tell you?
Well, if it was me I would realize that the only person who has the power to change my behavior is me.
Likewise, I try to be as compassionate, understanding and loving to myself as I would be to my best friend, but I would also be honest with myself like I would be with my best friend if I thought they were engaging in some self-destructive behaviors.
Perhaps try to find a support group. Often the people who help the most are the people who are going through it themselves, and you all can support and encourage each other to make the proper changes in your life.
Just ask yourself; is your rebellion at making the changes you need worth it when your life is on the line? What would you say to a friend or loved one if you saw them doing what you are doing.
Doesn't your book say "God helps those who help themselves?" I am not saying that to be a jerk, but to maybe give you some incentive to make the changes you need to.
You'll be in my thoughts, Phat. Be well. e-mail me if you'd like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 05-01-2005 8:52 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 05-05-2005 10:52 AM nator has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 69 of 220 (204111)
05-01-2005 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
05-01-2005 8:52 AM


Re: Why Belief?
Phatboy
Yes..I have prayed about it...but I am to a point of despair. I am at a point where not changing means bad consequences. And yet I cannot pull away from the cliff edge!
Hey Phatboy! Seriously now,who is telling you that you cannot pull back from the edge? I think you are only one step away from the change you need.Again,who is the one saying you cannot pull away? i will give you a hint. It is not Satan.
This is where the best part of you will surface my friend. It is a simple step to do but it is not easy to admit.You are your actions old boy.When you realize the depth of that responsibilty you will also have the means to change.Let go of the disease and the power you give to it and then enjoy life again.
Just remember that life is a dance.Do not send the band away before it has finished playing eh?

And since you know you cannot see yourself,
so well as by reflection, I, your glass,
will modestly discover to yourself,
that of yourself which you yet know not of

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 05-01-2005 8:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
Monk
Member (Idle past 3924 days)
Posts: 782
From: Kansas, USA
Joined: 02-25-2005


Message 70 of 220 (204128)
05-01-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Phat
05-01-2005 8:52 AM


Re: Why Belief?
Phat,
Sorry to hear about your declining health. You say oddly undisciplined referring to yourself and seem surprised at your own reaction. The fact that you recognize it and that it is odd says a lot. Is there anyone of us who doesn’t get depressed at least on occasion? During those times my faith seems a distant memory and I don’t always feel the presence of God. That’s when depression sets in.
I’m no psychologist and I realize a few lines of text on a forum probably won’t help. But I would like to tell you a story anyway.
A few years ago, I was surveying an elementary school for a building expansion project. My job was to gather field data as part of the design process. While I was there, I met the janitor who was an elderly woman that had been informed I would be there by the school administration. She helped me with various questions and knew the buildings very well having been a janitor there for 30 years.
We discussed the facility for awhile but then the conversation drifted towards God and she became animated. It’s always fun to find God as common ground among strangers. We talked for about 30 minutes then we parted company. I never saw her again and didn’t think any more about it.
About 6 months later, I received a package in the mail along with a letter. It was from the janitor. She had gotten my mailing address from the school administration and wanted to thank me for our conversation. She wanted to tell me how much it meant to her. She sent me a little wooden angel from the wood-working class. It was a piece that she picked up from the trash and painted herself.
You see, she had a son that was very much troubled and was caught up in crack cocaine. He had tried to kill her on more than one occasion. She had become so depressed that she had resolved to let him do it the next time he tried. Our conversation gave her the courage to persevere and now her son was getting help. She said things aren’t perfect but are moving in a good direction.
She told me I saved her life. I can't describe in words how that made me feel. But until she sent that letter, I had no idea.
God is a powerful force in the lives of many and he often works in unusual ways. It is our nature to want to get feedback on everything we do. We want to know that we are making a difference. When we don’t get that feedback, we begin to question everything, even why we’re here.
You’ve mentioned in other threads that you work with young kids. I have no doubt that you’ve changed their lives but the effect of those changes may not be apparent for a long time. The odds are that you will never know your full impact on them. But that’s OK. It’s not our responsibility to do more than just plant the seed. God will take care of the rest.
That little wooden angel is a treasured memory for me and a reminder of why we’re here. Our mission and our purpose is to serve God by serving others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Phat, posted 05-01-2005 8:52 AM Phat has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 71 of 220 (204225)
05-02-2005 12:59 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by nator
05-01-2005 8:08 AM


I have nothing to argue with you about in your post, dawg.
Wow! cool.
I really do see a change in you, BTW. Much less strident, much more...relaxed.
Thanks. I don't know the mind of God, but MAYBE one reason he demands faith is that it is very hard if not impossible to be humble and loving if you feel like you have to prove something.
Well, thanks for this exchange. Have a good'un.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 8:08 AM nator has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 220 (205257)
05-05-2005 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by nator
05-01-2005 9:56 AM


Re: Why Belief?
Schraf writes:
Doesn't your book say "God helps those who help themselves?"
Funny you should mention it. Actually, this famous quote appears nowhere in the Bible. While it is true that
NIV writes:
James 1:22- Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
we are instructed to listen to God,
it is not true that He only helps those who help themselves. The question is, can He help those who do not know Him? Also, is He divinely directing and guiding all human efforts? More accurately,does He help those who help themselves by trusting Him only?
Rom 14:7-9
For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
Does this mean that God will not help someone who does not know Him?
( or believe that He is real?) That is up to His people who are here now. They are the ones who should
1 Tim 5:21... keep these instructions without partiality, and to do nothing out of favoritism.
My friend and I were talking about this the other day. He brought up the point that too many fake "religious and pious" people will never lift a finger to help a non-christian in trouble. He believes that the ways of god are the ways of love and of helping the common man on the street. He hates religion, but he is one of the most spiritual people that I know.
So does this mean that God helps everyone? We believe that He does...and has...helped everyone by making it possible for us to thrive as His children. Here is where the inclusiveness of christian theology comes in. Does this mean that we are either children of light or children of darkness by default?
And I'll leave it at that...I will leave that one unanswered because I believe that everyone chooses to accept a supernatural belief as a source or to trust their own human wisdom as their source.
And who am I to judge the intentions of an honest heart?
Now...as this relates to me personally and my struggles with my disease, it is true that I am not going to get healed by sitting on my assumptions. I need to exercise, eat right, and take the proper meds. I am not alive only for myself, however. I am alive for a purpose which is greater than my self and my needs/wants alone.
At least thats what I believe.
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 05-05-2005 09:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by nator, posted 05-01-2005 9:56 AM nator has not replied

  
Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 220 (205265)
05-05-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by nator
04-29-2005 8:06 AM


quote:
Then you became a Christian because that is the dominant religion in your culture, by far.
When I grew up I never heard one think about Jesus or Christians. Our culture is as far away from Christianity as we can get. Ever turn on the tv or listen to music. I become a Christian because I always doubted people saying Jesus wasnt the Son of God having never gone to Church. As I said earlier none of my family or friends did either. So to say oh you become a Christian because that is the dominint religion is a far cry from the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by nator, posted 04-29-2005 8:06 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2005 11:58 AM Jackal25 has replied
 Message 83 by nator, posted 05-05-2005 11:43 PM Jackal25 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 74 of 220 (205272)
05-05-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Jackal25
05-05-2005 11:29 AM


Ever turn on the tv or listen to music.
In Texas? Yeah - like everywhere else in our country its "jesus jesus jesus god god god" almost 24-7.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Jackal25, posted 05-05-2005 11:29 AM Jackal25 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Jackal25, posted 05-05-2005 3:04 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 77 by Phat, posted 05-05-2005 3:39 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jackal25
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 220 (205324)
05-05-2005 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
05-05-2005 11:58 AM


I dont understand what you just said. My point was that tv and radio is as far away from Christianity as it can get. I guess you agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2005 11:58 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by crashfrog, posted 05-05-2005 3:10 PM Jackal25 has not replied

  
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