Religious views of Magic the Gathering--PLEASE HELP!

I would especially like to hear from those who have a religious objection to the game Magic the Gathering. I would like to hear from Phat and Dawg as I think they might help me understand the thinking of fundamentalists. I have a pressing need to understand this.In my regular and very secular program for school age children we include among many activities playing Magic the Gathering. I love the game and the parents of my players also appreciate how it encourages reading and reading comprehension skills as well as math and logic.I'm facing opposition to the game in a summer program from a co worker who finds it objectionable. I'll find out more but it's based on some sort of conservative Christian objection. Now I know some of the children who play Magic at my program are from devout Catholic families and their parents support the game i.e. buy their children the cards. I know other mainline Christians who have no problem with it.It's clear to me from the way the children play and talk about the game that like myself they are into the various strategies and tactics. Nobody is believing in worshiping demons or anything. I am going to be fighting against a ban on the cards that may even include quitting in protest but I really would like to understand why the objection. I myself don't find D&D objectionable but the person object ing to allowing children to bring Magic cards to the program lumped their objection in with Dungeons and Dragons. I also know some parents object to the Harry Potter books and I don't know what else.Where is this coming from and why? I'd like to hear any information about why these games and books are being censored as to me I see no problem with them. I don't really know how to talk to this person so any insights or viewpoints would be much appreciated. Please Help me!!!Thank you,
lfenedited spelling errorThis message has been edited by lfen, 06-16-2005 08:13 PM

What grade are these kids in and/or how old are they?

The children are kindergarten through 5th grade ages 5 to 12.Two brothers 6 and 7 are very bright and their father really supports the game. I just learned today that the older brother is going from the first grade to third grade. I won't say Magic taught him to read, he is very bright but he was very motivated to read the cards and so that helped him apply himself.lfenABE: I'm not talking about over riding a parents wishes for their children. I'm talking about a staff person objecting to children whose parents approve of their playing the game bringing their cards to play the game at a camp and it's the part of the camp I'm in charge of they wouldn't even be there during the time we played Magic. So I feel they are trying to force their religious beliefs on people who don't agree with them and since this is not a religious affiliated program in any way I think this is totally uncalled for. There are some work political issues involving connections that I won't go into.This message has been edited by lfen, 06-16-2005 08:32 PM

A strategy - the parents are concerned that the game trivializes the occult; i.e. suggests that spells are harmless. Asserting that it's just a game, or that magic/spells etc don't actually exist isn't going to convince them because the Bible tells them that magic actually is real.What I would do is highlight the aspects of the game that you can take out of context (hey, there's no way they're going to understand the context anyway) to "show" that the game is actually against the occult:1) Mana burn. Reckless use of magic power can hurt you.
2) The color balance. White always defeats black; the divine is always more powerful and can protect against the evil.
3) The "spell" cards have no instructions or occult directions on them that can be followed. ("tap one mountain"? What does that even mean in real life?)Ultimately, your program is secular and doesn't recognize the existence or effecacy of the occult. Your co-worker has every right to opt not to participate in a game of Magic: The Spending, but it's inappropriate for her religious considerations to dictate what other parents' children will be allowed to play. If it's really a big deal, have the parents campaign for the dismissal of that worker.

mtg = d+d on trading cards.now, uh, this take might offend some, but it's the truth as far as i know it. i think christians object on an overly protective basis. fundamentalist christian parents (i've known a few) are very, VERY protective of their children. anything that give them the willies, or could possibly involved satan, or doesn't seem like it has to do with god, the church, or some other basic need (like eating or getting an education) they would like to save their children from.fundamentalists as a whole are very wary of temptation. they seem to avoid it at all costs. and something with pictures of beasts and demons and ghouls doesn't really seem like anything BUT temptation to idolatry to them.but the children aren't stupid -- they know they're not really summoning spirits and demons. it's just a strategy game. but i bet the parents will say something to the extent of it being real. (yes. really)i suggest rigging a deck to show them. remove all "magical" type instants, interrupts, etc. remove all "dark" kind of things (no black cards!). make it only creatures, preferably human (knights, etc), and artifacts, and made stuff on the level of disenchant. no fireballs, no tims (prodigal sorcerer in specific). just plain old average joe kinda cards.

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אָרַח

That's younger than I thought. It has been a while since I have actually seen a magic card. I have only played it once or twice and I believe it was the first edition of the cards, so probably limited but I don't remember any kind of sexual or overly graphic images on the cards. There are definitely some very graphic books in the D&D series that I have seen, though.As far as using it as a tool for education I would support that. The strategy and forethought is excellent and will probably hold the attention of kids that age better than chess would.My argument would be, this game is like chess with more depth. As far as demonic craziness, first of all if the parents in question are fundies there is way more graphic reading to be found in the bible than most fantasy genre games. But that issue is moot, they should trust their children with some degree of intellectual responsibility. If they're worrying about them playing Magic at 5 to 12, they have their work cut out for them at 13-18.

They should play Witch of Endor instead.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Wait a minute, you just described my best deck! Damn that diabolical comic book clerk -- "you'll be the pure 0wnage" my ass!

my best deck is a bruteforce fireball deck. every cheap buring card ever. it's quite methodical.my most creative deck would have to my furnace-elf deck. it's a manalooper (mana elves, aluren, recycle, mana flare) and a furnace deck (furnace of rath, fireball, and a goblin) combined. basically, it puts a lot of mana on the table, a furnace, and a goblin that deals damage to the opponent when it's dealt damage. so you fireball (or shivan dragon) the goblin, which re-doubles the damage to opponent. it ends up dealing sometimes more than 100 damage, if it works right. sometimes big creature decks just globber the elves too quickly for it work. but it was really just a gimmik.god, i haven't played magic in forever.

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אָרַח

That made less sense to me than a Chris Porteus topic but it sounds very elite.

yes, my phone number at work ends in "1337"i thought from the sound of your comment you played. i haven't in years, and i don't remember much. sorry for geeking out on you. lol

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אָרַח

Anything that deals with occultic imagery, which includes magic, spells, etc, is thought to be a gateway to deeper occultic involvement, an invitation to demonic influence of an occultic sort. Old-fashioned occultic practices such as astrology, Ouija board, seances, tarot cards, are more obvious. Any form of superstition may be a gateway, however, it seems to me. I don't know that anyone has yet identified a direct connection between the kind of game you are talking about and actual witchcraft or sorcery, but it seems to me if parents don't like it they should simply withdraw their children from such activities.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-17-2005 12:58 AM

Hmm... I've never played D&D or Magic, so I can't really say much about it.The parents are probably afraid of their kids being desensitized and attracted to the occult or even learning occultic practices through the messages in the cards (I have no idea if there are any such practices there).My view is that most likely it is harmless and the parents are over-reacting -- perhaps even experiencing a little crusader arrogance, but like Jesus said, if their consciences are weak don't continue to cause them to stumble by continuing to do that which upsets them. I don't think quitting in protest is a good idea.ABE: oops, just caught that its the co-worker and not the parents, but I guess the same thing still applies.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 06-17-2005 01:29 AM

D&D was our favorite game as a family back in the day before everyone moved out (Thank God!).I was Robin of Rohan (from the Tolkein novel).My wife was Lolo of Lomoria.My friend was Frank from Cleveland.This is called fantasy.

Magic: The Spending, haha, yep it can be that way, but so can any obsession. I spend a lot more on dancing than I do Magic. I spent $55 on dancing just last weekend, well $45 of that was on workshops. I haven't spent that much money on the current expansion just a couple of decks and few cards to improve them but I just play casually for fun. Obviously I agree with you. I'm just wanting to have done some preparation before the meeting tomorrow and the better I understand how the issues might look to her the better I might deal with this and hopefully find an amicable solution after all we have to work together much of this summer. I'm still taken aback that she is trying to dictate this to me. I had already told her she didn't have to have it in her part of the program and that works fine. For example I only allow playing electronic games like Gameboy for a certain period of the day the kids know when it's time and when it isn't. No big deal.lfen