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Author Topic:   Article: Religion and Science
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 230 (218040)
06-19-2005 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TimChase
06-19-2005 1:36 PM


Promoted
by AdminJar

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 230 (218142)
06-19-2005 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by TimChase
06-19-2005 9:20 PM


Re: The Fundy Factor
I wonder if Tolerate is the right word. How much ignorance should be considered a "Tolerable" amount?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 230 (218390)
06-21-2005 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by TimChase
06-21-2005 9:01 AM


Re: A Gesture of Goodwill
Tim
You may also want to research just who has appeared, stood up, in opposition to the teaching of Creationism. You'll find that a significant percentage of the folk carrying the fight are religious leaders. From a theological perspective, I feel that the science folk have let us down because they hesitate to criticize folk when Creationists fall back on playing the Religious Trump Card.
It has been religious folk, folk like Bishop Sims and others that have said the Literalist viewpoint regarding Genesis is both bad science and even worse theology. It's time for everyone to put down the gloves and quit treating Ignorance in the name of Religion as something acceptable. It's not. It is time to speak up and label the folk in the Kansas school Board as Ignorant, not religious.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 230 (218478)
06-21-2005 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by EZscience
06-21-2005 4:54 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
How much ignorance and missinformation propagated by religion can be 'tolerated' by science?
IMHO the point here is that it's not Religion propagating the misinformation, but willfully ignorant people. The idea that there is a GOD who wishes overpopulation and the suffering that will come with that is ludacrous. People who claim a religious right to promote such nonsense are just plain wrong. It is like the child saying babies are brought by the stork. Sooner or later someone needs to tell them, "I know you believe that but it's just plain wrong".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 230 (218531)
06-21-2005 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by TimChase
06-21-2005 9:11 PM


Re: And when religious and scientific teachings conflict?
I might try to be a tad bit more diplomatic, but this is the general idea.
IMHO, that's part of the problem. Being diplomatic has brought us to the current point. Literalists simply do not understand diplomacy, it is simply seem as agreement. The only thing that may work is every time one of the really stupid ideas, a 6000 year old earth or opposition to teaching the TOE comes up is to just say "Nope. That's a wrong idea and we won't teach it to any poor child."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 230 (218651)
06-22-2005 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
06-22-2005 9:03 AM


Re: Home Schooling
In your proposed school.
If one of those students decides that the TOE is correct, that the earth is billions of years old and the universe tens of billions of years old, that there was never a Flood, how would they be graded?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 230 (218740)
06-22-2005 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Faith
06-22-2005 4:34 PM


Re: Home Schooling
So if they come to the conclusion that the world is only 6000 years old that would be graded as a right or wrong answer?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 59 of 230 (218969)
06-23-2005 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Faith
06-23-2005 12:13 PM


Re: Where would it end?
Once again you are missing the point and falling back on the classic defense that you have some right to believe that 2 + 2 = 5.
There are things that are certainly subject to belief. For example, whether or not there is a GOD and the nature of that GOD is something subject to belief. However there are other things that are factual in nature.
The age of the earth and universe is factual. The earth is billions of years old and the universe is tens of billions of years old. To teach otherwise is to teach that 2 + 2 = 5.
It is willful ignorance.
Evolution is a fact. Mankind is simply a product of a long line of evolutionary changes. To teach otherwise is to teach 2 + 2 = 5.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 12:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 62 of 230 (218973)
06-23-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Faith
06-23-2005 12:30 PM


Re: Where would it end?
If I have to I will defend the right of parents to teach their children that 2+2=5 IF THEY DAMN WELL PLEASE.
Yes. It's called willful ignorance and you have shown repeatedly that you are committed to encouraging willful ignorance.
How do you justify the right to teach children that 2 + 2 = 5?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 230 (219013)
06-23-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by lfen
06-23-2005 12:38 PM


Re: Where would it end?
The issue is not about Home Schooling, in fact I believe that education is always dependent on the home, the public schools are simply a matter of resource sharing. The issue is whether it is moral to teach things that are simply wrong. For example, teaching that the earth and universe are only 6000 years old is simply wrong. Teaching that mankind is the result of some magic trick instead of a product of a long evolutionary history is simply wrong.
Is it right to teach children things that are factually wrong?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 86 of 230 (219106)
06-23-2005 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Jazzns
06-23-2005 6:10 PM


Re: Where would it end?
I would just like to point out that nowhere have I mentioned or advocated making it illegal to teach incorrect beliefs. I have not mentioned government, rules, laws or statutes TTBOMK.
I have asked how someone can in good conscience teach something that is wrong.
I have said that reagrdless of what someone believes, reality determines what is right or wrong when it comes to factual material. 2 + 2 = 4. Evolution is a fact. The universe is more than 6000 years old.
I ask again, how can anyone in good conscience justify teaching falsehoods?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 91 by Jazzns, posted 06-23-2005 7:03 PM jar has replied
 Message 110 by lfen, posted 06-23-2005 10:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 230 (219112)
06-23-2005 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by TimChase
06-23-2005 6:55 PM


Re: Legislating Truth
Please point out where I have advocated turning any such decisions over to the state?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 230 (219119)
06-23-2005 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by Jazzns
06-23-2005 7:03 PM


Re: Teaching falsehoods
Well, personally I'm all for an element of fantasy in children. I see no problems with teaching any and all of the above.
There is though a difference between things that are the area of belief, and factual, practical knowledge. This thread is on religion and science.
IMHO, a literalist interpretation of religion, not just Christianity although it is perhaps the greatest offender, is inimical to both learning science and the general welfare of society.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 230 (219125)
06-23-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Jazzns
06-23-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Teaching falsehoods
We will always need people to fill the roles in society that don't require extensive education.
Ah, like President or Senator or Congressman. I see.
I am not so convinced that it is dangerous to society as long as they are not trying to push it into govn't and schools.
IMHO there is a problem. We have a problem because people indoctrinated through such systems often end up in decision making capacities, in Congress, the white House, and increasingly (by design) on school boards. Increasingly, literalists are becoming the tyrants. Look at what happened in Georgia and is going on now in Kansas. Look at the attempt to push through legislative "Student Bill of Rights".
Make no mistake. Science and critical thinking are under direct attack by the Religious Fundamentalists and they are a far bigger threat than terrorist will ever be. The goal of the Christian Literalists is Mandated Ignorance. It's not their own willful ignorance, they want to force through law and legislation ignorance on every person in the world.
Their methods are threefold, gain control of the school boards, gain control of local governments and gain control of the broadcast medium. They don't need to control all the media, only enough outlets so that their propaganda becomes ubiquitous. And they have that today.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 101 by TimChase, posted 06-23-2005 9:38 PM jar has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 230 (219141)
06-23-2005 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Faith
06-23-2005 9:15 PM


Re: Teaching falsehoods
Such suspiciosness would always prefer some form of state oppression to curtail the rights of those with wh
Please point out where I called for state oppression.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 9:15 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Faith, posted 06-23-2005 9:32 PM jar has replied

  
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