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Author Topic:   Article: Religion and Science
GDR
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Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 13 of 230 (218154)
06-20-2005 2:45 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by TimChase
06-19-2005 11:51 PM


Re: The Fundy Factor
I was wondering if you could define "Intelligent Design". To me it simply means that there is a creator. Obviously some see it as political and some seem to see it as a type of science.

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 Message 12 by TimChase, posted 06-19-2005 11:51 PM TimChase has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 29 of 230 (218467)
06-21-2005 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by TimChase
06-21-2005 2:00 PM


Re: Bravo!
TimChase writes:
I may not know the particulars in a given state as to who is organizing the opposition to bringing intelligent design into the classrooms, but it wouldn't suprise me in the least if it is in a large percentage of the cases churches which understand what is at stake
I asked this question earlier in the thread and I'm still hoping for an answer. I'm obviously missing something about the concept of intelligent design. When I talk about ID I am only saying that I believe that there is an intelligence outside of the physical that created the universe. I'm not saying that it is scientific or anything else.
What is it about ID as you understand it that is wrong, and how do you understand it?

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 49 of 230 (218747)
06-22-2005 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Brian
06-22-2005 4:47 PM


Re: Where would it end?
Briam writes:
I am against all forms of child abuse.
As you know Brian I'm not a literalist but I think that equating the teaching of YEC to kids with child abuse is just more than slightly over the top.
Even with evolution kids were taught until recently that one of our ancestors was Neanderthal man. DNA has shown that not to be the case. Some how I don't think it's done any lasting damage.
My biggest fear with kids and the teaching of YEC is that eventually they will look at it and come to the conclusion that it isn't true and as a result discard their faith entirely.
Yhat being said however if we are to start turning over our kids to the state in an Orwellian fashion we are going to cause a lot more damage to future generations than are a few home schoolers teaching YEC.

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 Message 47 by Brian, posted 06-22-2005 4:47 PM Brian has replied

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 Message 53 by Brian, posted 06-23-2005 8:14 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 54 of 230 (218931)
06-23-2005 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Brian
06-23-2005 8:14 AM


Re: Where would it end?
What you are talking about now though Brian is public education. In that case I agree with you completely.
However it is the job of parents to raise kids and it is not the job of the state. Parents of any belief, whether it be literalist Christians, orthodox Christians, liberal Christians, Buddhists, Atheists, Hindus Muslims etc.
If a child is sent to a fundamentalist Christian school the parents know the religious slant of that school. If the kids are sent to a public school the parents should be able to know that there is no religious slant to the teaching. To suggest that home schooling a kid and teaching him or her the religion of the parents regardless of which religion, (if any), they'll be taught, amounts to child abuse is, as a say, over the top.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 76 of 230 (219039)
06-23-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by lfen
06-23-2005 2:19 PM


Re: Where would it end?
Good post Ifen. I agree completely.
I have a question though that I keep trying to get answered.
Ifen writes:
What is factual does change. I strongly oppose teaching ID in public schools.
Could you please define what you mean by ID. What are you suggesting would be taught. What I have assumed is meant by ID is that there is Intelligent Design behind the universe with the obvious inference that somewhere there is an Intelligent Designer. It is a philosphical question though, not a scientific one. (At least at this point. Scientists is doing such a remarkable job who knows how far they can take their discoveries.)
It seems that the whole concept of ID has political overtones that I'm not aware of. I'd just like to see our terms defined.
Even evolution seems to mean different things to different people. In my view evolution is still evolution whether there is Intelligent Design behind it or not. I get the feeling that not everyone would agree with that although I'm not sure of that either.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 119 of 230 (219206)
06-24-2005 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by TimChase
06-23-2005 11:52 PM


National Geographic
I hope admin won't mind if I quote a report from National Geographic rather than just posting the link. It fits in with the thrust of this thread of the relationship between science and religion.
National Geographic writes:
Evolution and Religion Can Coexist, Scientists Say
Stefan Lovgren
for National Geographic News
October 18, 2004
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein
Joel Primack has a long and distinguished career as an astrophysicist. A University of California, Santa Cruz, professor, he co-developed the cold dark matter theory that seeks to explain the formation and structure of the universe.
He also believes in God.
That may strike some people as peculiar. After all, in some corners popular belief renders science and religion incompatible.
Yet scientists may be just as likely to believe in God as other people, according to surveys. Some of history's greatest scientific minds, including Albert Einstein, were convinced there is intelligent life behind the universe. Today many scientists say there is no conflict between their faith and their work.
"In the last few years astronomy has come together so that we're now able to tell a coherent story" of how the universe began, Primack said. "This story does not contradict God, but instead enlarges [the idea of] God."
Evolution
The notion that science and religion are irreconcilable centers in large part on the issue of evolution. Charles Darwin, in his 1859 book The Origin of Species, explained that the myriad species inhabiting Earth were a result of repeated evolutionary branching from common ancestors.
One would be hard pressed to find a legitimate scientist today who does not believe in evolution. As laid out in a cover story in the November issue of National Geographic magazine, the scientific evidence for evolution is overwhelming.
Yet in a 2001 Gallup poll 45 percent of U.S. adults said they believe evolution has played no role in shaping humans. According to the creationist view, God produced humans fully formed, with no previous related species.
But what if evolution is God's tool? Darwin never said anything about God. Many scientistsand theologiansmaintain that it would be perfectly logical to think that a divine being used evolution as a method to create the world.
Still, science does contradict a literal interpretation of the first chapter of Genesis in the Bibleon the origin of the universewhich says that God created heaven and the Earth and the species on it in six days.
Scientific evidence shows that the universe was actually formed about 13.7 billion years ago, while the Earth was formed around 4.5 billion years ago. The first humans date back only a hundred thousand years or so.
Like other scientists of faith, Primack, who is Jewish and reads the Bible regularly, argues that the Bible must not be taken literally, but should be read allegorically.
"One simply cannot read the Bible as a scientific text, because it's often contradictory," Primack said. "For example, in the Bible, Noah takes two animals and puts them on the Ark. But in a later section, he takes seven pairs of animals. If this is the literal word of God, was God confused when He wrote it?"
Proving God
Science is young. The term "scientist" may not even have been coined until 1833. Ironically, modern physics initially sought to explain the clockwork of God's creation. Geology grew partly out of a search for evidence of Noah's Flood.
Today few scientists seem to think much about religion in their research. Many are reluctant to stray outside their area of expertise and may not feel a need to invoke God in their work.
"Most scientists like to operate in the context of economy," said Brian Greene, a world-renowned physicist and author of The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality. "If you don't need an explanatory principle, don't invoke it."
There is, of course, no way to prove religious faith scientifically. And it's hard to envision a test that could tell the difference between a universe created by God and one that appeared without God.
"There's no way that scientists can ever rule out religion, or even have anything significant to say about the abstract idea of a divine creator," Greene said.
Instead, Greene said, science and religion can operate in different realms. "Science is very good at answering the 'how' questions. How did the universe evolve to the form that we see?" he said. "But it is woefully inadequate in addressing the 'why' questions. Why is there a universe at all? These are the meaning questions, which many people think religion is particularly good at dealing with."
But is a clean separation between science and religion possible? Some scientific work, including such hot topics as stem cell research, has moral and religious implications.
"Religion is about ethics, or what you should do, while science is about what's true," Primack said. "Those are different things, but of course what you should do is greatly determined by what's true."
Natural Laws
In a 1997 survey in the science journal Nature, 40 percent of U.S. scientists said they believe in Godnot just a creator, but a God to whom one can pray in expectation of an answer. That is the same percentage of scientists who were believers when the survey was taken 80 years earlier.
But the number may have been higher if the question had simply asked about God's existence. While many scientists seem to have no problem with deismthe belief that God set the universe in motion and then walked awayothers are more troubled with the concept of an intervening God.
"Every piece of data that we have indicates that the universe operates according to unchanging, immutable laws that don't allow for the whimsy or divine choice to all of a sudden change things in a manner that those laws wouldn't have allowed to happen on their own," Greene said.
Yet recent breakthroughs in chaos theory and quantum mechanics, for example, also suggest that the workings of the universe cannot be predicted with absolute precision.
To many scientists, their discoveries may not be that different from religious revelations. Science advancements may even draw scientists closer to religion.
"Even as science progresses in its reductionist fashion, moving towards deeper, simpler, and more elegant understandings of particles and forces, there will still remain a 'why' at the end as to why the ultimate rules are the way they are," said Ted Sargent, a nanotechnology expert at the University of Toronto.
"This is where many people will find God, and the fact of having a final unanswerable 'why' will not go away, even if the 'why' gets more and more fundamental as we progress," he said.
Brian Greene believes we are taking giant strides toward understanding the deepest laws of the universe. That, he says, has strengthened his belief in the underlying harmony and order of the cosmos.
"The universe is incredibly wondrous, incredibly beautiful, and it fills me with a sense that there is some underlying explanation that we have yet to fully understand," he said. "If someone wants to place the word God on those collections of words, it's OK with me."
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-23-2005 10:15 PM

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 160 of 230 (219315)
06-24-2005 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by lfen
06-24-2005 9:51 AM


Re: Where would it end?
TimChase writes:
"How could this world have possibly gone so wrong?"
Ifen writes:
Which world are you referring to here? The entire biosphere of earth? The entire earth, core, mantle, crust and biosphere? Or just our human species and societies? Or just civilization?
And then what is the wrong and right it has or could have gone?
Good question. It does seem to me that this is the old "Is the glass half full or half empty argument". We keep hearing about the sorrow in the world but it seems to me that there is far more joy than sorrow or we wouldn't be working so hard to see how we can extend our lives.
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-24-2005 08:30 AM

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 164 of 230 (219453)
06-24-2005 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by lfen
06-24-2005 9:51 PM


Re: Where would it end?
I read all through the first part of the Book of Buddha which is the part that gives the teachings of the original Buddha. To be honest it was very affirming for my Christianity to find the continuity of teaching what I found there and the teachings of Christ. It was all there, right down to loving your enemy.
I would certainly be open to the suggestion that he was a prophet of God in the same way that Moses was. I'd even suggest that Christ is the completion of the teachings of Buddha in a somewhat similar way that He was to the teachings of Moses. Just speculation on my part but it does seem to fit.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by TimChase, posted 06-25-2005 12:04 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 166 by TimChase, posted 06-25-2005 12:13 AM GDR has not replied
 Message 172 by lfen, posted 06-25-2005 4:11 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 174 of 230 (219511)
06-25-2005 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by lfen
06-25-2005 4:11 AM


Re: Where would it end?
Getting way OT. Please do not respond to this side-thread
ifen writes:
Interesting you think it fits. I don't think it fits at all. To me the important thing about Buddha was that he wasn't a prophet. He wasn't representing any God and refused to comment on whether there was or was not a deity. His teachings were not based on a mystical revelation but on insight into his nature that culminated in a revolution of consciousness which he said was available to anyone to affirm. Very different from Abrahamic religons where you either believe the story or don't but have no way to experience the truth for yourself. Well, until you die.
I don't see how Christ would complete Buddha's teachings as he seems to be saying that egos will be given eternal life and that many egos will suffer. Mahayana Buddhism at least denies those things. There were Buddhist missionaries in the Near East about the time of Christ so there could have been an influence but there doesn't seem to be any documentation to speak of just a few references.
I realize that the theologies don't fit, but the point is that the message of love and compassion does. I was just struck by how the language was so similar to the teachings of Jesus. To me it indicates the eternal message that God is trying to deliver to us.
Where I suggest that in some manner Christ would complete the teachings is because I can see the Buddhist that hears that timeless message spending a life serving Christ even if he doesn't know him by name.
This message has been edited by GDR, 06-25-2005 07:14 AM
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 06-25-2005 10:20 AM

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Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 11:09 AM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 176 of 230 (219524)
06-25-2005 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Faith
06-25-2005 11:09 AM


Re: Where would it end?
I agree that Christ is foretold in the OT and not in the message of Buddha. We may disagree, but I believe that it is very scripturally correct to say that Jesus taught that the important thing is to actually live his message, not just to hear it and believe it.
I believe in the metaphysical world, and I believe that there is a spiritual change that accompanies true conversion and that we receive an awakening of our consciousness that can help us down the path of loving God and our neighbour.
As I have said before, I am convinced that God is far more concerned about the condition of our hearts than he is our theology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 11:09 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 12:10 PM GDR has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 178 of 230 (219532)
06-25-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Faith
06-25-2005 12:10 PM


Re: Where would it end?
Faith writes:
Ditto what I said above. There is no contradiction between these. The condition of our heart depends on our right theology. A wrong theology leads to errors of heart. You keep wanting to throw out the theology as if the heart could find its own way without it. If that were the case Jesus wouldn't have needed to come or teach anything at all.
There is where we have a basic disagreement. Our heart is changed because we respond to that "small still voice of God" in all of us. The right theology helps us to understand and it also tells us how we can be more attuned to that "small still voice of God" by finding relationship in this life with Christ.
It is still God that we worship, not the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
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