What do believers believe heaven or hell are like?

Several years ago a book was published, entitled Beyond Death's Door by Dr. Maurice Rawlings. Dr. Rawlings, a specialist in Internal Medicine and Cardiovascular Disease, resuscitated many people who had been clinically dead. Dr. Rawlings, a devout atheist, "considered all religion "hocus-pocus" and death nothing more than a painless extinction". But something happened in 1977 that brought a dramatic change in the life of Dr. Rawlings! He was resuscitating a man, terrified and screaming descending down into the flames of hell:
"Each time he regained heartbeat and respiration, the patient screamed, "I am in hell!" He was terrified and pleaded with me to help him. I was scared to death. . . Then I noticed a genuinely alarmed look on his face. He had a terrified look worse than the expression seen in death! This patient had a grotesque grimace expressing sheer horror! His pupils were dilated, and he was perspiring and trembling he looked as if his hair was "on end."
Then still another strange thing happened. He said,"Don't you understand? I am in hell. . . Don't let me go back to hell!" . . .the man was serious, and it finally occurred to me that he was indeed in trouble. He was in a panic like I had never seen before."
(Maurice Rawlings, Beyond Death's Door,(Thomas Nelson Inc., 1979) p. 3).
Dr. Rawlings said, no one, who could have heard his screams and saw the look of terror on his face could doubt for a single minute that he was actually in a place called hell!

Heaven is a place deviod of every evil conciet of earth. No money, hatred, no ladder to crawl, a place of complete and total peace

In reality I'm not sure that you can definitively say that it is the brain that has a huge impact on behaviour. I think that quite possibly the brain is just a super computer that operates on an instinctive basis (breathing, hunger etc) and that there is something outside the physical that controls judgement and behaviour.One thing that I have found as I get older is that there is some part of me that isn't ageing the way the rest of me is. I find that when I look out at the world I'm still the same person that I was years ago and yet I am who I am today. There is in my view a part of us, that is just us, that is outside of time. I'm still the same person I was 20 or even 40 years ago. My 86 year old mother tells me that inside she is still that young mother raising her babies.Another place where I think this can be demonstrated is in our dreams. Think about the last dream you can remember. How old were you in that dream? My experience is that in my dreams I just am. I'm not any age and certainly not the age I am now.Hardly empirical evidence so you can take it for what it's worth.

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In reality I'm not sure that you can definitively say that it is the brain that has a huge impact on behaviour.

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Well, in science we cannot say anything with 100% accuracy but it is true that the idea of the brain being largely responsible for thought, perception, and behavior in humans is a very well-supported idea in Neuroscience, Developmental Psychology and Cognitive Psychology.

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I think that quite possibly the brain is just a super computer that operates on an instinctive basis (breathing, hunger etc) and that there is something outside the physical that controls judgement and behaviour.

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This is demonstrably not true.Damage to the brain can affect people's entire personalities, for example, essentially turning them into different people. People can also lose the ability to feel love and affection, or lose the ability to control their angry impulses.A famous example is Phineas Gage:

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One thing that I have found as I get older is that there is some part of me that isn't ageing the way the rest of me is. I find that when I look out at the world I'm still the same person that I was years ago and yet I am who I am today. There is in my view a part of us, that is just us, that is outside of time. I'm still the same person I was 20 or even 40 years ago. My 86 year old mother tells me that inside she is still that young mother raising her babies.

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OK, but nothing about this feeling that you have suggests that the brain could not be responsible.

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Another place where I think this can be demonstrated is in our dreams. Think about the last dream you can remember. How old were you in that dream? My experience is that in my dreams I just am. I'm not any age and certainly not the age I am now.

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Again, this is interesting but in what way do you think it is impossible or unlikely that the brain alone is responsible for this?

That is a very good point, but I'm not totally convinced that I was wrong however.For sake of argument let's assume that I was right, and the brain itself just operates like a computer with the mind which is external to our physical nature, controlling the inputs for the things that are done by impulse.It would make some sense that if the brain malfunctions due to physical damage or some mental disease, then any inputs would be scrambled as well. It would be like flying a fly by wire airplane. You can put in an input to bank left, but a computer malfunction could cause the plane to bank right.At any rate, this is pure conjecture and I agree that you do make a very good point. One thing I obviously did badly in my post was to not make it clear that I was changing the subject. The part that you were responding to with this quote was just trying to make the point that there is an aspect of us that is outside time. I see it as evidence that there is life outside the body. This had nothing to do with the functioning of the brain.The only connection that I am suggesting is a connection between the mind and the part of us that is outside of time.

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For sake of argument let's assume that I was right, and the brain itself just operates like a computer with the mind which is external to our physical nature, controlling the inputs for the things that are done by impulse.

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It would make some sense that if the brain malfunctions due to physical damage or some mental disease, then any inputs would be scrambled as well. It would be like flying a fly by wire airplane. You can put in an input to bank left, but a computer malfunction could cause the plane to bank right.

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Well, this might be the case but the explanation requiring the fewest assumptions is the one which does not invoke an undetectable "spirit" or what have you that you are suggesting.We could also say that aliens, or the spirits of our ancestors, or our chakras are influencing and guiding our minds seperately from our bodies.If I stick a icepick into the same part of your brain that was damaged in Phineas Gage, I predict that we would see similar behavioral and temperament changes as he and other people experienced.The problem you have is that your explanation doesn't make any predictions that we cantest, and it is not based upon any verifiable evidence.

Of course you are right. What I'm suggesting is that there is a part of us outside the physical whose existance is unlikely to be proved in this life time.I do think however that there are indications of an existance that we have that is not part of our 4 dimensional world. I have already suggested the one in which we have a consciousness that appears to function outside of time. There are also vast numbers of people who have had out of body experiences. (I'm not one of them. )Science is one subject, which at least at this point, does not overlap with a totally different subject which is religion. I find both fascinating and not in the least do I believe that they are at odds with one another.

The brain is purely physical and the soul is purely spiritual. The mind is the part of our brain that is not physical. It is a result of the brain and I believe that it has to do with the soul. Like a connection between the two. Now, if you go tampering with the brain and try to induce a religious experience I think it would seem very real. I don’t think the person would be able to tell the difference. Smells, visions, body movements and other emotions could stimulate intense religious feelings as well. I still don’t think that this rules out that other, lets say ‘true’, religious experiences are cause by the soul. It makes sense to me that because the soul is connected to the brain, via the mind, that effects on the brain could seem like effects coming from the soul. But because this is possible, does not rule out the soul, IMHO, as the cause for ‘true’ religious experiences.You would say that what I call ‘true’ religious experiences are a result of self-delusion, to which I would say that I am convinced that they are not delusions. And then you would say that being deluded means that you don’t think you really are deluded, and then I say yeah, I could be all wrong and actually be deluded, but I still think I ‘know’ that I’m not, so I guess there is no way for me to find out, and I’m gonna go with my gut on this one. This seems to go with the whole brain/computer analogy. When you damage the brain, you damage the mind. And behavior and temperament changes would be expected. Well, I’m not satisfied with the most simple explanation with the fewest assumptions because of the religious experiences I’ve had and the feeling of a soul that I have. That explanation seems incorrect to me, and I’ve realized that science cannot touch the subject because of its inability to detect/demonstrate the subject. These are also possibilities and I wouldn’t be able to tell if it were one of these or if it was my soul. But I do think that something is influencing and guiding our minds seperately from our bodies. I don’t just pick soul randomly, a lot of my beliefs come from Jesus.A lot of this seems off topic, but IIRC I did say what I believe heaven or hell would be like and I believe that they exist because I believe I have a soul. This post shows why I believe in the soul which is why I believe what heaven and hell are like, so, I guess that it is on topic.

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Now, if you go tampering with the brain and try to induce a religious experience I think it would seem very real. I don’t think the person would be able to tell the difference. Smells, visions, body movements and other emotions could stimulate intense religious feelings as well.

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Exactly.

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I still don’t think that this rules out that other, lets say ‘true’, religious experiences are cause by the soul.

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No, of course it doesn't.The problem is, though, how does anyone ever tell the difference between a "true" religious experience and a self-induced one?

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You would say that what I call ‘true’ religious experiences are a result of self-delusion, to which I would say that I am convinced that they are not delusions.

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Actually, I would not at all say that all religious experiences are a result of self-delusion.I would say that there is no way of knowing if they are real or delusion.Add to that our ability to consistently predict the outcome of what happens when we stimulate the "religious experience" part of the brain in various people, and our ability to consistently predict the outcome of what happens when there is damage to similar parts of the brain in various people.If we damaged that "religious experience" part of the brain, the person would no longer be able to experience religious feelings.Does that mean he has lost his religion? Does that mean his religion doesn't exist?

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And then you would say that being deluded means that you don’t think you really are deluded, and then I say yeah, I could be all wrong and actually be deluded, but I still think I ‘know’ that I’m not, so I guess there is no way for me to find out, and I’m gonna go with my gut on this one.

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See, I think it's really not a good idea to "go with my gut" when it comes to the brain.The brain, especially WRT determining fantasy from reality, is typically really, really easily fooled. It is most easily fooled when certain factors are in place, such as:1) strong cultural or group reinforcement to believe something with no rational basis,2) there is a desire to explain something mysterious or unknown,3) the individual has a strong desire for a particular feeling or outcome to be "true".This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-21-2005 11:46 PM

I think that it is up to the individual. Some people think they are having religious experiences all the time ('God brought us here today'......). Some think their religous experience is a delusion. Some feel nothing, some feel a little, some feel a lot. You just gotta decide for yourself if it is real or not. And if someone claims to have had a religous experience and you don't believe them, so what?A baseball was flying towards my head and at the last second I saw it and ducked. God tapped me on the shoulder and saved me, see he's really really real. Yeah right. Just as lame is, I used the force and saw it comming before I saw it comming. How about my reflexes kicked in that have naturally evolved and nothing extraordinary happened. While we're speculating..., If we damaged that "religious experience" part of the brain and the person can still experience religious feelings, then that would suggest that the feelings can come from somewhere else as well, perhaps the soul. I must not be typical. I can easily determine fantasy from reality.What kind of fantasies are you talking about, besides religious experiences, that easily fool the brain? Definately. Alot of people believe way too much without even thinking about it. I'd recommend the same remedy that Bill Hicks did: a psychedelic experience. "It makes you realize that everything you've learned is in fact learned and not neccessarily true."

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I think that it is up to the individual. Some people think they are having religious experiences all the time ('God brought us here today'......). Some think their religous experience is a delusion. Some feel nothing, some feel a little, some feel a lot.

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But if one is deluded, then by definition, one doesn't know one is being deluded, right?Otherwise, it wouldn't be a delusion.So, depending on the individual to tell reality from delusion is not at all useful.

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You just gotta decide for yourself if it is real or not.

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But the nature of delusion is that you decide that something is real when it isn't.There is no way to tell the difference when you are using only internal, subjective evaluation rather than independent, outside verification of some kind.

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And if someone claims to have had a religous experience and you don't believe them, so what?

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Well, right now we have a President who says that he is an agent of God and that he is doing what God tells him to do. Tens of thousands of people have died because of what Bush has done in part because he believes that he is on a mission from God to "spread democracy" to Iraq.The 9/11 bombers believed that they were also doing God's will.I'd say that this affects me, and everyone.

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A baseball was flying towards my head and at the last second I saw it and ducked. God tapped me on the shoulder and saved me, see he's really really real. Yeah right. Just as lame is, I used the force and saw it comming before I saw it comming. How about my reflexes kicked in that have naturally evolved and nothing extraordinary happened.

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Or, I made a touchdown, now I'm going to bend down and thank God, or I got a life-saving operation and it was a miracle.

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While we're speculating..., If we damaged that "religious experience" part of the brain and the person can still experience religious feelings, then that would suggest that the feelings can come from somewhere else as well, perhaps the soul.

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Or perhaps another part of the brain. This is why people can recover from strokes and get better. The brain compensates.But hey, if we were able to demonstrate through brain lesioning that there was a very specific "religious experience" part of the brain, and that we never observed the recovery of the ability to feel religious experiences in a person who had sustained damage to that part, would you ever consider that religious experience is physical?

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I must not be typical. I can easily determine fantasy from reality. What kind of fantasies are you talking about, besides religious experiences, that easily fool the brain?

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How do you do this, though?Do you withold judgement until you get confirming evidence?Do you see an optical illusion and never see the illusion?Were you convinced by all of the forced perspective shots in Lord of the Rings or were you able to tell that John Reis Davies who played Gimli is actually taller than most of the other actors?Have you ever construced a false memory?

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Definately. Alot of people believe way too much without even thinking about it. I'd recommend the same remedy that Bill Hicks did: a psychedelic experience. "It makes you realize that everything you've learned is in fact learned and not neccessarily true."

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Right.And religious experience is no different.

In the same way, you cannot tell if you are not being deluded.But, if the delusions produce consistent outcomes then they could be considered useful, or if outside confirmation of the delusion is consistent, then it doesn't matter if it is a delusion.WRT the soul, it is only an internal/personal delusion and not useful outside of the body. But, the 'outcomes' of my soul are consistent and, though outside confirmation is impossible, inside confirmations are consistent with what I feel and believe. I fell no more deluded about my soul than I do about my existance. I am as sure of my soul as much as I am sure of my existance. So did Mother Teresa. Or how about when a baseball player steps up to the plate and makes the sign of the cross/says a little prayer, man that pisses me off. of course, and I have. But it is inconsistant with what I feel, think, and believe. Oh, I didn't know you were including optical illusions and special effects in fantasy. I was thinking more 'internal'. So an optical illusion is a delusion?What about this one:http://www.cs.toronto.edu/...ion-wheels-circles-rotating.pngNow, it looks like the image is moving when I look at it, but I know that it isn't. Am I deluded? I know they are not moving and I don't believe that they are moving, but it looks like they are moving. I've determined the reality from the fantasy.I think if I were deluded then I would think/believe that they are actually moving. No.

I don't have time for a full response now, but I just had to address this:

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No.

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So, you have never disagreed with a family member about what happened during some event in the past?Are you really saying that you have never pictured something in your mind's eye, sure that you remember what it looks like, only to be surprised when you see that "something" and it's appearence is different from how you remembered it?Neither of these things has ever happened to you?

I'm not really sure. Nothing specific comes to mind. But for argument's sake lets just say that I have and move on.ABE: In addition to moving on I hope you also address mesage 87This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 06-23-2005 12:55 AM

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I'm not really sure. Nothing specific comes to mind. But for argument's sake lets just say that I have and move on.

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You almost certainly have constructed a false memoryIt's almost impossible not to produce false memoris at least sometimes, because memory does not work like a videotape.All memories are reconstructions.