What do believers believe heaven or hell are like?

quote:

---

In the same way, you cannot tell if you are not being deluded.

---

Exactly.

quote:

---

But, if the delusions produce consistent outcomes then they could be considered useful, or if outside confirmation of the delusion is consistent, then it doesn't matter if it is a delusion.

---

Well, if we have the ability to make an objective test, then it does matter.We don't have that ability with individual, personal, subjective assesments such as you are suggesting are the only method we can use to determine the "real" religious experiences from the delusions.So, we are back to square one. We don't know.

quote:

---

WRT the soul, it is only an internal/personal delusion and not useful outside of the body. But, the 'outcomes' of my soul are consistent and, though outside confirmation is impossible, inside confirmations are consistent with what I feel and believe.

---

So, if a depressed person believes that they are worthless, and interprets everything that happens to them and everything that anyone says to them as consistent with their deeply-held belief, does that mean they are, indeed, worthless?

quote:

---

I fell no more deluded about my soul than I do about my existance. I am as sure of my soul as much as I am sure of my existance.

---

Why?

quote:

---

So did Mother Teresa.

---

Hold on, let's just remember what you said.You said:

quote:

---

And if someone claims to have had a religous experience and you don't believe them, so what?

---

You seemed to be implying that people's personal religious experiences have little no no effect upon others. Clearly, that is not true at all, which is why I brought up Bush and the 9/11 hijackers.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-23-2005 09:12 AM

No, I wasn't going that far with that statement. I was thinking more in the context of a conversation, with emphasis on the claim. I don't think claiming to have a personal religious experience(PRE) has much affect, it is what you do about that experience, what actions you take. But, I wouldn't blame a PRE for the actions that sometakes outside of that experience. I doubt the 9/11 terrorist were having a PRE while they were hijacking the airplane.I'm out of time. Will continue later.What about optical illusions and false memories?

Mr. Mohammad sir,I respectfully beg to differ on your interpretation of hell and concept of the fate of most women. I realize the Quran says many things in regards to our fallbacks but these were old unequipped opinions of a man who had no idea what the world would prosper to by now. The scriptures have a pattern and going by other history comparible to date it is obvious women were held back in all walks of society so much that no man could possibly no the depths of our capacity. These are ideas suited to dominate...the hell idea was to do exactly what it does...scare the dickens out of the female race so we don't run away from ugly old me that we don't want to have sex with.

That's what you get as soon as you latch onto a works based salvation/damnation. There are an awful lot of commandments to keep (or try to keep for the tryers The other view is that it is by grace you are saved. That Goddoesit. If so:- Hell is not hard to stay out of. It is impossible. All are born with "Destination Hell" stamped on their foreheads. It's the default position in other words- Heaven is 'very easy' and 'very hard' to get into. Very easy in that its God who gets you in. It only takes a second of your time (or less). Very hard in that he had to pay a hefy sum to allow it to happen. His son A beginning can be made if one latches onto a single idea. There will be no sin in heaven. Start imagining life if no one sinned and you start to get an idea of what it will be like (some will shout "Booorrrrrinnnnngg")Worth noting that a result of sin is sickness, disease, pain, worry, fear etc. No sin then none of these things either.Hell? I prefer not to think about it. Put it this way: I wouldn't be a bleeding heart by any stretch of the imagination. Not the most compassionate person on the planet either. But the fact that I'm not going there myself doesn't make it any less stomach churning when I allow myself to consider what I know of what it will be like.The bible tells us "no eye has seen and no mind has conceived... what God has prepared for those who love him" That same could be applied to those that don't

So if you wanted to relax and not be challenged for a week or so, would they boot you out of Heaven? So Hell would be non-threatening??? Would Heaven thus be threatening??

Why would I not want to be challenged?Heaven will be both threatening and challenging I hope.

So i wont have an option of laying about on a cloud watching reruns of Seinfeld, and 2 and a half men?Cmmon its hevan they should give me an option to watch 2 and a half men season 9 with Charlie sheen instead of Aston Kutcher

I suppose it all depends what we assume Heaven is supposed to be like.Will humans do and have exactly what their little heart desires? Is heaven kinda like winning the lottery and getting laid all in one??Is heaven about us or about God? Or both?

Well from what i gathered from the bible if you are a good boy and worship god do what he commands and dont do what he forbids after you die you get the grand prize of worshiping your god for eternity singing his praises telling him how awesome he is and the like. And if your not a good boy you go to hell where you burn and get tortured and of course you dont get the privilege of worshiping your god praising him and telling him how awesome he is.

Frako, I somehow imagine your life and world view summed up in this song! Edited by Phat, : fixed

BREAKING.There is no hell, satan or devil. There is only those who do hellish, satanic and devilish deeds in their actions.The rule is:
Those who lie make sure their proof is far away.Proof: study the history of those who blackmail you.

You're David Mabus' protege, aren't you?

hehe kind of its close but this comes closerI am at home in such hills
even the dog sometimes rides on its ass
Tink how hard it is to grow stuffYou better not be a little salted
If i where drunk many times
i would already be buriedI have a fox that brings me my post
Cards are played by a black kos (bird)
The wheelbarrow is my only rideThe hawk has no place to turn
When he lands to get the chicken
But why whine its good enough to be aliveWe hillbillies are good people
hojlarija ri
Whoever dosent think like we do has something happen to him fast
....Last day i went to the wally
For shuggar, pepper, oil and salt
And immediately it started
A long haired young man came
I dont know if he was a sister or a brother
You know he tried to beat me up
I barely escaped i said to him
Pepy your good now
I hurry back where the smart people areIn the valley everyone is mad
In the hills we live differently
here we all know each otherWe hillbillies are good people
hojlarija ri
Whoever dosent think like we do has something happen to him fast
....I killed a bull
And was making nops
The IRS came and said hops
Your shitting me all whiteout papersI told them the destilary is still burning from last year
The bull is allso hanging a year
dont you remember you gave me the papersThe young inspector lookt at me angry
said he dosent like people like me
i should stop shitting like this
......
...
..
..combined with this song
Od Franca Franekina god (god as in the day your name is on the calendar)Back in the day the people where better looking and fatter
They liked to drink and eat something good
Not today when men are worse then mice
someone thinks he looks so fine, only if he is skinny as a pin.Back in the day it wasent like this,
they thought you where sick, if you had less then a hunderd (kilos) .
A real man had to have at least 120 kilo,
and he could with no effort eat half a pig you know horizontally cutIf i think of Franca Franekina
how much we ate, how much wine we drank
when i think about it someone came in to my house
he hit me on the shoulder and said "today is my godI said "listen to me cerfully Franc Franekin,
today he is watching you, if you dont give out a quarter"
"A quarter what are you talking about you cunt
We two are going in the cellar to empty a barrel or 2"I told frans i dont mind,"
I made 2 sandwitches for the road
To each a loaf of bread, mortatella, cheese
enough so our stomach gives us peace on the roadIf you go down the village to the left and then straight
in 15 minutes you arive at Franekinovih,
Franc opened the cellar
and called his wife to make something light to eatWhen i entered the cellar, i fell in to a trance,
as if a regiment of soldiers dressed up for a parade
the barrels stood in line, bel pinot,
zelen, barbera, kabernet, merlot.(typs of wine)And what was tied to the celling,
ham, baco , panceta and in the middle salami,
and sausages in rows all redy for winter
like grapes it hung all downFirs work we drank the pinelo
down the throat those 2 paninka with mortadela,
and then we slowly went from barrel to barrel
we opened up the pipe and tried them one by oneGarganja, ka ti stori voju za okulat,
zelen, prekrasen, ka ma tak duh ku mukat,
pinot, ka se ti v ustah razcveti takuo ko roa,
merlot, ka ti elodk poboa, an taku naprej, tako pores.
(hard to translate describes the taste of the various wines)I said franc lets play a little violin
i ment cut some prut it would be right with this wine (prut says ham but i dout uncle google is right)
You dont have to ask
one two three the prut was on the cutting table being cutSoon all that was left was a bone
so not to fall weak we each attacked a salami
and all the time trying out the barrelsWe ate a few lofes of sirkov bread with the meat
barbera made sure our throtes where not dry
and then his wife brought down
a big bowl of olce with lomberjem. ( a gula typ of thing)To everyone a bit of jote, in stepped a pig,
in each portion a few sausages where swimming
and on the side some fried prut, and polenta
the bowls where so full they where screaming"you want a noter piece, what will you drink with that withe or black"
"just pour all is good"
"now that we finished lets move on"when we finished a new prut was on the table
The wife went up to bake a frajtca (meat)
I told him" stop a little it was enough "
he said" be quiet drink and eat"There was no choice but to obey
Till the morning to drink and eat
When the dawn came we also sang so that windows cracked
And then everyone had breakfastBack in the day people where bigger and more butiful
they liked to eat and liked to drink and loved oneanother
if a man eats poorly he gets bad blood
that man is always in a bad mood and always angry( if you think the song is exaggerating you would be wrong stuff like this still happens)And mixed with a bit of this songSummer is coming back to us,
and again i got a recourse,
society is paying for my holidays
just one lousy million bucks.I have never squandered my money on drinking,
I always put it in a sock,
when it will empty out,
I will run away to the place only I know.It is easy to live there with my salary,
I will rea,lly go there some day,
I will not return back home,not even in my dreams,
although I will send postcards to you all.Republica Palma de Cocco,
this is a place for nice people,
the bottom of the bottles is very deep there,
there is no end of partying.Creoles are dancing samba,
and such negro women,
who have their buttock as big as two heelbarrows,
everyone of them is worth a sin.If you spend all night boozing they are not mad at you,
and you do not have to pay back dues to the waiters,
neither cops are sober there,
there is no prisons and fights.In the Republic Palma de Cocco,
there is party for everyone,
even the president Loco Loco
doesn not know the favouritism.You can drink there as much as you can,
and do whaterevr you want,
you can say whatever you want
and nobody goes into prison because of this.When one night i will fall in a ditch
Drunk of rum like a dragon
The policeman will gently and respectfully
cover me with his own shirt.Do not touch my head if i have temperature,
and do not ask what is wrong with me,
do not think it got me,
and i am not going childish.I will be laughing a lot,
when these days,
from the Republic of Palma de Cocco,
you will get my postcards.

So to sum up what heaven may be like...." be quiet drink and eat".... "We hillbillies are good people...."(Whoever doesn't think like we do has something happen to him fast ) You can drink there as much as you can,
and do whatever you want,
you can say whatever you want
and nobody goes into prison because of this.I think I understand. We Americans were always used to doing what we wanted...shaping foreign governments, attacking South American dictators that tried to raise the price of coffee or sugar...you know?I guess neither one of our cultures ever listened to God...if He in fact ever tried to tell us anything. You always suspected He was out for your money, and we always thought He was giving us ours.I guess that...quite honestly...I expect life to be better with God than without Him.Frako, do you ever think our cultures would get along? (Or would you guys beat us up? )Edited by Phat, : spelling

For some reason, I dont feel that God Himself sacrificed all that much. Its like a dictator who has the election rigged. Even if His Son died, He could always bring him back.