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Author Topic:   Christian conversion experience: descriptions/analysis/links: input invited
MattAShine
Inactive Junior Member


Message 106 of 199 (219492)
06-25-2005 6:38 AM


I do not have a conversion story for your records, but I do have a sort of deconversion one.
I was born and raised Catholic. Every Sunday, my father would take myself and my brother Jim to church, and every Sunday I would listen to an old man preaching about the virtues of living a life of piety (whilst surrounded by a monolithic solid marble building and more stained glass than a Tiffany's auction), and the fires and damnation that awaited all non-believers. Suffice to say, such practices were quite sucessfull.
Had my tenure with the church been relegated to Sundays alone, I doubt I would have had much of a problem, but this was not the case. You see, my father had decided that he wanted my brother and I to both be confirmed as he had been, and the result was every week for about 5 years I had to go to a specific Catholic school and be "taught" what it meant to be a good Christian.
When I started these classes (the course was called CCD), I had no doubt in my faith. God was the biblical God, Adam and Eve happened, Noah built the first Titanic, and Moses went onto Mt Siani. There were no doubts and I still vividly arguing with other kids about what my faith was as I saw it as not being faith, but written history (like the Civil War).
Things were fine for about the first year, and then I started noticing things. As my official schooling advanced, I noticed that what I had been taught in the bible hadn't been referenced in regular history books. Not a big matter, I'll grant you but I had always been under the belief that it either didn't happen or it did, no middle ground and all of a sudden a gray area emerged. I spoke with my CCD instructor and asked why people like Christ weren't mentioned in my school history books and he answered "because they don't teach the truth."
By the time I was in my third CCD year (I would have been around 12), questions really started to mount. I had learned more about science and wanted to know how the Garden of Eden could be true scientifically. I wanted to know how they knew the bible was written by god and not just men bent on oppressing others, and the more in depth my questions got, the murkier and shallow the answers became. I was told not facts, but that it's "a matter of faith." To me, now as back then, that is the biggest cop-out. A sign they don't know and they don't care.
The CCD teacher became, obviously, very 'concerned' with the direction I was taking. After trying to talk with my father, I was sent to confere with the head priest in his private residence that was attached to the church itself (don't worry, this isn't one of... those stories). Now, every Sunday I was used to having the collection plate being passed around (I even did the collecting for a few masses), but I was told that the money collected was used to benefit the local homeless shelters and I could never fault them (the church) that... until I went into this priest's private home. It was like Edwardian opulence. There were ornately carved fireplaces, solid brass tea servers, suede chairs, oak and mahogany tables with mother of pearl inlay. It was disgusting. For years, I put my allowance money into those collection plates, and now I finally saw what was done with it.
The final, and irrevocable blow to my faith in the Catholic church was done in my fourth year of CCD, and as with all things in life, it had to do with money. In the local papers and television news it was reported that a number shelters went belly up due to lack of funding and donations. During mass, the priest mentioned that the church was putting all of its efforts into finding the resources to help the community and used the opportunity to push extra hard for "more than generous" contributions. That same week, a drunk driver actually hit the church building, destroying a section of the brick ediface, marble and a few pews. Within 2 weeks, it was right back to the way it was. In 2 weeks, all that marble, stone and wood was replaced. The costs must have been in the thousands and I could only sit back in slack jawed amazement that this was done by the same people who just recently said they needed all the help they could get to help 'the homeless.'
I got confirmed, but only as a favor to my dad (my brother Jim didn't even get that far, rather he quit CCD).
After that, I sort of drifted to other religions. I read as much as I could about them and in the end, I made my peace with being agnostic. I do think something is out there, but nothing that can or has been 'bottled' by humanity. Unlike some who don't believe in the dogma, I don't use my lack of religious faith like a moral credit card (doing something wrong because I don't believe a celestial diety is watching over my shoulder). Rather, I try to treat other people with respect and dignity and try to behave in a manner that allows me to sleep at night with a sound mind. If I'm wrong, I still have nothing to be ashamed of, but I don't think I will ever enter another church or place of worship without it being for a marriage or a funeral.
Matt
PS - Sorry about the length. This is my first post on this site, and it was this discussion that prompted me to register.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 107 of 199 (219496)
06-25-2005 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by randman
06-25-2005 3:52 AM


Re: charismatic experiences
Thanks for the thoughts, Randman. I don't mind if you want to write on at great length, it's interesting. But I can assure you that there was no lack of fluency in my "tongues-speaking" and I'm not sure what gave you that idea. The first few days I DID sing as a matter of fact, but oddly the tunes were familiar American folk tunes though the "words" were the "tongue." I went around the house singing like that for days and thought it was interesting and a bit amusing but not at all spiritual. Later I found it becoming a burden as I didn't like its feeling so unrelated to my spiritual life, and after I saw through the unbiblical elements in the circles I was in I just didn't want anything to do with any of it any more.
I just can't see those "revivals" such as Toronto as true revivals at all. Certainly many odd phenomena attend true revivals too, however. Jonathan Edwards wrote about those things in the First Great Awakening. And I think there was much that was genuine in the Second Great Awakening too, but the theology of its main catalyst Charles Finney was different from the theology of the First Awakening, and that may be why it went off in many false directions and spawned the weird cults of the day.
I'd love to see a revival now, but I want a REAL revival, not this stuff of mere spectacle. The revival that has most intrigued me to read about is Wales in the early 20th Century. It went on for years and it was the genuine power of God though if I recall correctly the spectacular phenomena were not as much in evidence as in some others. In Toronto the spectacle appears to be THE thing itself.
I can't doubt YOUR experiences of course but I really can't see the POINT of tongues any more at all. At Pentecost it had a point. It demonstrated the moving out of the Church of God to all peoples through His Spirit. But in our day it has long since moved out to all peoples.
Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-25-2005 09:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 108 of 199 (219508)
06-25-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by randman
06-25-2005 3:52 AM


Re: charismatic experiences - critics
I started to include this as an edit to the previous post and then thought it might be better posted separately.
Have you read any of the critics of the recent revivals in Toronto and Brownsville? I know many who have been involved in those things won't read the critics at all. When I left the charismatic movement I needed to understand all that from the other side. One website that has been very helpful is Tricia Tillin's Cross+Word site in the UK, where she collects many articles investigating these phenomena. She herself remains charismatic and believes in the gift of tongues.
http://www.intotruth.org/index.html
This is an article I found there this morning that seems pretty careful and thorough, addressed to the Assembly of God churches (actually it's a complete book):
http://www.intotruth.org/brn/overheads.html
And here is information on the Welsh revival of 1904 including newspaper accounts and some sermons of its best preachers. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is included because of his sympathy with the revival though he was too young to be a preacher at the time. He has always been one of my favorites. There are tapes available of his preaching in his wonderful Welsh accent though he died in 1981.
http://www.christian-bookshop.co.uk/free/rowland.htm
Here's John Piper ("Desiring God") on Martyn Lloyd-Jones, mainly considering his view of revivals. "Calvinistic Methodism" is used to describe Lloyd-Jones and in some ways describes Piper too. This article illuminates the fundamental problem of how to discern the work of the Spirit from the work of the flesh and the devil without quenching the Spirit.
404 Error - Page Not Found | Desiring God
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-25-2005 10:54 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 109 of 199 (219510)
06-25-2005 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by randman
06-25-2005 5:44 AM


Re: charismatic experiences
I have to say that what you describe to lfen here does sound genuine. The spontaneity is impressive.
BUT there is no hint that the woman who was knocked down at the convenience store UNDERSTOOD anything. Why is that? This is what always bothers me about the charismatic experiences, the emphasis on experience and the theological emptiness of so much of it, as well as the outright doctrinal deviance of a lot of it. Often charismatics will pooh-pooh doctrine and theology, but one has to ask how on earth they can know the source of the experiences for sure without having the doctrine to judge them by? Where is the Berean spirit? The book I link in the previous post at Cross+Word explains the importance of right doctrine very well and the danger of deceit from counterfeit phenomena if the word of God is not the constant standard.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-25-2005 11:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by randman, posted 06-25-2005 5:44 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by randman, posted 06-25-2005 1:07 PM Faith has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 110 of 199 (219540)
06-25-2005 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Faith
06-25-2005 10:10 AM


Re: charismatic experiences
I agree that doctrine is important, but it's not all there is to life. The solution for lack of sound doctrine is to add sound doctrine, not try to downplay the moving of the Holy Spirit.
The thing in the convenience store was God's doing. That sort of thing is not really up to us, especially that particular event.
Paul says to "earnestly covet the best gifts." The way I interpret that is whatever is best for the moment. I don't see him talking about "love" there as a gift. Love is something more important than the "gifts" in that context, and Paul devotes a whole chapter to making that point. Love is really more something we do, although in a larger biblical context, it is true that God's Love is indeed a great gift.
The way some try to insert so-called "sound doctrine" is to teach the opposite of what Paul said, and not only to not seek the best gifts, but create doubt as to whether they come from God.
You gotta remember we have a perfect biblical example of a charismatic church gone haywire in the Corinthian church. In many respects, they were super-charasmatic, and Paul adds to them sound doctrine and reproof but never by toning down the charismatic part.
Imo, most charismatic churches are pretty "dry." It's not that they are too wild in this area, but they aren't moving in it enough.
While it is true, something like a miraculous healing is not as important as someone giving their life to Christ, or perhaps even someone's marriage and family being restored, but it's biblical.
Jesus had a lot of stuff going on that He didn't leave us a lot of doctrine to explain. Specifically, he cast out a lot of demons, and even today, if you ever wind up casting demons out of some people, it's not like you can go to the biblical book of the New Testament explaining the dos and don'ts or even the theology of it, which is indeed murky.
If you've seen it, you know it's real, but evidently God likes us to work out some of this stuff walking it out with Him.
Always remember that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Just make sure something is the Spirit of God and not something else.
My little bit of advice is once you understand the root problems of the stuff you are talking about, you begin to see that same root problem in a lot of evangelical non-charismatic churches as well. There is an immaturity problem in churches, and problems with group-think, and really this can spill over into witchcraft, but that also tends to kill the move of God so the wild manifestations are less.
Give me a sovreign outbreak of God's anointing and presence, poorly understood even, anyday than a man trying to present the image of his stream's leaders as real godliness, and all the accompanying doctrinal emphasis. We are only correct and sound to the degree we are like Christ.
My sense is unfortunately we have a lot of different images of godliness to try to live up to, but most are off in some manner and don't resemble Jesus, just parts of what He believed. We need more reform to be honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 10:10 AM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 111 of 199 (219541)
06-25-2005 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by randman
06-25-2005 1:07 PM


Re: charismatic experiences
Yes you are arguing much along the lines of Martyn Lloyd Jones and I already agree though I'm a lot more cautious than I used to be. The idea is to avoid quenching the Spirit, but at the same time some things that are considered to be of the Spirit are of a counterfeit spirit, because of false doctrine, and that's not a minor thing.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 112 of 199 (219544)
06-25-2005 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Faith
06-25-2005 8:01 AM


Re: charismatic experiences
Faith, not to belabor the point, but Finney came along much later, decades later in fact. It is true that much of the theology was different, but you have to remember that in all of Church history just about every revival faded, and often error came in.
It's the nature of the thing.
Jesus did some mighty miracles in places like Caperneum, in modern venacular there was a great revival, but they slipped too, and he upbraided them.
We cannot expect to get more from people that the Lord Himself did. It just isn't like that. No matter how strong a revival and work of God is, there is the still "the world", and I tend to think more in terms of the kingdom advancing and creating change in the earth like the mustard seed growing parable, but it's gradual to some extent and not easily noticed all the time. Things like revivals are part of the growth, but not all of the growth.
I went to Toronto, and know of many of the places touched by that revival. It was the real deal. It just happened to occur at a Vineyard church and so you got their style featured.
In Brownsville, which came from the same revival, tens of thousands of people were saved. That was very much a salvation and repentance revival but with the same stuff going on. It was a classic revival in a lot of ways, but not as geographically strong as Whitfield's and Finney's revivals.
I think the same thing is on-going really, just in smaller groups with people being saved, etc,...
Basically, my point is that in the Bible and Church history, very wild manifestations have occurred with some frequency, and that it's the nature of God to be a lot weirder than us. Moreover, the move of God in this arena is not so much connected to church doctrines, but creating a deeper relationship with God whether via people getting "saved" or coming into a closer walk.
It's an apple and oranges thing. It IS doctrinally sound to call people to a closer walk with Jesus, and for such wild spiritual things to occur.
But that doesn't negate or replace the need for solid biblical teaching, and "sound doctrine" is not a system of theology that dismisses wild, spiritual manifestations. It's just not an either/or thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 8:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 1:40 PM randman has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 113 of 199 (219545)
06-25-2005 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by randman
06-25-2005 1:36 PM


Re: charismatic experiences
Well, sometime take a look at the links I posted, especially the second one.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 114 of 199 (219547)
06-25-2005 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
06-25-2005 10:02 AM


Re: charismatic experiences - critics
Faith, I've read all the criticism or heard it firsthand personally. The criticism is not biblical, imo.
Most ministers were oppossed to it, until it happened to them so to speak. The problem is we think we know what God is like, and in our churches present this image of godliness for the people, saying, hey, this is what God is like.
So when something comes along that doesn't match that image, we think it cannot be God.
Same thing happened in Jesus's ministry. They said, look, He doesn't abide by the religious rules. He presents a different image than us, and so He must do these things by the work of the enemy.
That's how they treated Jesus, and really that's how revivals and the Holy Spirit are treated when there is a flood of His presence. Most say they want revival and genuinely mean it, but most probably would not recognize it as something from God initially. That's just the way these things are.
God uses the foolish things to confound the wise. To the degree our "sound doctrine" reflects man's wisdon will be the degree often we are unsure of a move of God.
Btw, that doesn't have to be anti-intellectualism. It's just we need to balance out religious tradition and our own wisdom with recognizing God's sovreignty.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 115 of 199 (219549)
06-25-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
06-25-2005 1:40 PM


Re: charismatic experiences
I'll read the links.

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lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 116 of 199 (219550)
06-25-2005 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by MattAShine
06-25-2005 6:38 AM


Welcome, Matt,
I enjoyed your well written post. My experience of "deconversion" was even milder but I attended the Episcopal church, a "low" as oppossed to "High" church so I didn't have the financial objections, rather the story just didn't add up and never has. The more time I spend on this board the less the story adds up though I do see that it provides much psychological comfort and motivation to many.
lfen

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 117 of 199 (219554)
06-25-2005 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Faith
06-25-2005 10:02 AM


Re: charismatic experiences - critics
Faith, I haven't finished the 2nd article as I have some family visiting, and now we're heading to the beach.
But I wish he was more specific about the man shouting to the audience to "shut up." He makes it sound like it was a demon manifesting.
But, and I sort of hate to be critical, but he does the same thing he criticizes all Church leadership of doing, he refuses to name the name of this person he thinks may be a false teacher/prophet.
I am left to wonder whom this man was. Is he a false prophet mixed in with a true move, for example? It's just unsatisfying and totally unresolved.
I'll finish the rest when we get back and then comment. My general feeling though is that if we were to nitpick Paul's churches and his "ministry" in this manner, looking at what some of his churches did, I think he'd be run out of town too, as a false teacher.
Maybe there is more substance to come though in the article...
OK, I told my family to wait and read down a couple of paragraphs, and he is probably right, though I wasn't there, and imo, there are some problems with River churches, but the problem, imo, is not that the anointing is fake, but I'll read more, but some misuses.
I will get into it more when I return later, though it may be late tonight. I have some criticisms of my own, but it's not with the basic anointing. It's that the anointing is to focus more on Christ, more on God, and not the experience itself. It's fine to explain the experience, but there does tend to be too much focus at times on the experience rather than following the Lord, but we saw the same thing with the "born-again" emphasis in the 70s.
Nevertheless, people should still be "born-again." It's just that in some respects it's an on-going state, but that's a theological diversion. I do accept a new birth conversion as real. I think it needs a broader understanding though.
This message has been edited by randman, 06-25-2005 02:28 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 118 of 199 (219601)
06-25-2005 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Faith
06-25-2005 1:40 PM


Re: charismatic experiences
Faith,
Some comments upon reading further. There are legitimate questions, but the central question is if the areas that raise concern are due to the anointing and presence there, or the way leaders behave.
My take is it is the latter. One reason is we had a lot of the same stuff occur prior to this major outbreak, but with none of the items people are critical of. Basically, I tend to think what's going on is there are existing problems that are carried over into the "River churches" from people's past.
Take the concept of reliance on manipulation, although I saw much, much less of that in places like Toronto that the average church. What is happening is these leaders, often out of Pentacostal circles, are already steeped in questionable practices, and in my experience having observed all of this, and at times have some personal knowledge of friends that know some of these leaders personally, basically the River stuff has improved the area that might be viewed as negative, not caused it.
Unfortunately a lot of church culture is not that biblical to start with.
On the subject of focussing too much on the experience, that's true at times, as well as the resulting spiritual pride that can develop, but once again, this is more a people problem than a problem with presence and anointing. The same thing happened in some of Paul's churches, but no one today discounts his epistles because they were written by a false leader under a delusional anointing or some such.
I remember being at a Catch the Fire conference, and the anointing level was very strong, but I started to feel an oppression, and I knew what it was. They were focussing too much on the experience because that's what the conference was sort of about, but a good thing happened. Someone took to the stage and directed everyone's attention to Jesus, and then the "burden" lifted, and it was back to flat out awesome. It was awesome even when that heaviness came. I just knew something was out of whack.
Fortunately, at that time, the leaders of the conference senses that, lifted up the name of Jesus, focussed people on the Lord in worship, and it went very, very well.
But in typical fashion, many churches have not had the discernment and sensitivity to do that, and consequently, things get off.
But it's that with every movement, denomination, stream, etc,...
It's a people problem. It's not the anointing causing that.
And the imploring to just drink it in? Is that so much different than asking people to quiet themselves and stay themselves on God in prayer?
It's not so different, but I agree that I never liked the emphasis there. I wouldn't say it was heresy because I never saw it become a permanent rule or something, just a technique, overused probably and badly used it seems, and I've got no beef with criticizing that, but once again, that's just men trying to "help" God when they don't probably need to, and thus getting in the way.
I gotta go again, but will comment more, but just consider the problems this guy is talking about existed prior. I don't see the River anointing causing them, just that they have not been corrected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 1:40 PM Faith has replied

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 Message 119 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 7:32 PM randman has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 199 (219606)
06-25-2005 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by randman
06-25-2005 6:44 PM


Re: charismatic experiences
Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I want to get into a deep discussion about this. My own personal experiences with the charismatic movement ended with my recognizing --I have to say-- a MAJORITY of UNbiblical phenomena and doctrine, and I can tell you that after about a dozen years I'm still hurting from the experience.
I WANT the Holy Spirit to come in power. Maybe the most devastating result of that experience was the distrust of experiences of my own and now not knowing what to trust. I know great revivals by the Spirit have genuinely occurred, but the counterfeits are a big problem, not something to take lightly. I've spent quite a bit of time in prayer for revival since then, and I ask for DISCERNMENT to be a BIG part of it because of the unbiblical things that can go on.
But ALL the links I gave you are generally very understanding about strange phenomena occurring in the best of revivals as part of the way the Spirit hits people. None are mere unthinking debunkery at all. The one you have been commenting on seems very fair to me and I think you are seeing that too. If you read it through -- both parts (I know it's very long, I've been reading it myself today and still have half of part 2 to finish) -- you'll see that you agree with the main criteria for judging such things -- leaving Jesus out is a biggie, not preaching the Word is a biggie.
I wish he would name names too, but there are probably more problems than he wants to deal with that come from pointing the finger at a well known evangelist. He gives his address though so he might answer personal questions about that.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 120 of 199 (219660)
06-26-2005 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
06-25-2005 7:32 PM


Re: charismatic experiences
Faith, the Bible is pretty clear about what to look for as far as anti-Christ type spirits the author is talking about. First, they will preach a false Christ.
Personally, I don't see that going on. In fact, my own experience is most people I have know affected by the "River" anointing become more Christ-like, more like Jesus. I guess here I've been overly combative towards evolutionists, and I may just stay away from the forum as a result, but honestly, this revival anointing or whatever one wants to call it has been a blessing in bringing real character change, real fruit.
But it seems those that want to use the "River" to build their own thing or something, pretty much the same standard mistakes made for centuries, get off track some. The refreshing works best to help people develop a renewed prayer life and intimacy with God. It's not really about the power of large corporate meetings, necessarily, but empowering the believer to do whatever he or she is called to do, and to develop a closer walk with the Lord.
The power in the anointing is real, just as the author states except I disagree with his claims it is a counterfeit of the Holy Spirit, but what the best part of it is, it involves the healing of the heart, soul, and developing a renewed hunger for Jesus. I have seen that, and that's been my experience.
I admit some River churches seem to be off. Right now, we don't attend a "River church", but in my own family, we try to flow in it, and it's been a joy to see my son, 12, receiving and flowing with such a tanglible and strong anointing. My daughter too, 15, has been used of God, and just recently was led to pray for a woman who received a remarkable healing. I think the anointing has a lot to do with that.
But pride goes before a fall. Just remember that the same thing happened with Paul's revival churches. Look at the Corinthians.
We humans have a way of missing the point and messing things up.
The Bible also says to look at the fruit, and I can tell you the fruit has been good in my life and the people I know. The church problems the author talks about are rooted in religious doctrines, not the River anointing itself, imo.
The false prophets are the ones in sheeps clothing (appearing respectable or godly, etc,..) but inwardly are ravenous wolves. The part about being ravenous wolves is interesting to me. Imo, it speaks of leaders wanting to control "their sheep." Beware of that mentality. God's people belong to God, not to the leadership of a church.
One thing I like about what I have seen with the Rover anointing is that, in general, it lessens the control spirit, which is witchcraft in the Church. I know I am saying the opposite of what your guy is saying, but I have seen the spirit of witchcraft operating mightily, and imo, this anointing is breaking it, beating it back.
I think the Pentacostal writer is just not owning up the state that existed prior in the Church. It's a sad state indeed, but the stuff he is talking about suggests there was more godliness and this leads to less godliness.
I see it otherwise. Besides, those "River churches" that try to control the "River" for their own purposes, they pretty much dry up.
There may be some where the preacher is called to help bring that flow, and so last longer, even when persisting in error, but the whole anointing, if you ask me, is to break the grip of false prophets and false teachings.
Lemme put it this way. Most of what is taught to watch out for in false prophets by the Church is a very good description of John the Baptist, Jesus and Paul.
Usually, we are told to watch for people that are loners, have no covering, do odd things, break with norms (eating locusts for John the Baptist and eating with sinners for Jesus), etc, etc,....
The solution to the problems in the River churches is much the same for all churches. It's the leaven of the Pharissees, the Saducceed, and the Herodians, controlling leaders, and in general all the things Jesus said to watch out for.
He didn't really tell us to watch out for those that don't appear respectable, "too spiritual", not under their "covering" which imo can just a be a form of witchcraft.
I know I've gone too far talking here, but I am with you to watch out for false teachers, etc,...but make the Bible the source. The Bible is not overly suspicious of wild spiritual manifestations, nor prophets, etc...
The controlling spirit, false teaching, anti-Christ areas are easier to spot once you know what to look for. They are specific markers, a false image of Jesus where the image of godliness they advocate does not match the image Jesus is portrayed as in the Bible.
If you ask me, the guy wanting to go back to just a few years back, not really the early days of the Assemblies of God, wants a return to worse error and heresy. I guess we cannot get into it here, but Phariseeism is hypocrisy, and the thing he may not realize is the root errors of the Pentacostal River ministers stems not from "the River" per se, but from the existing state of the Church, including Pentacostals.
I could bring up far worse stuff committed by AG non-River ministers, and the truth is I could do that for just about every denomination. I won't do it here, but it's a sadder and worse state than people realize, much worse than the "errors" he refers to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 06-25-2005 7:32 PM Faith has not replied

  
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