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Author | Topic: Solving the Mystery of the Biblical Flood | |||||||||||||||||||
edge Member (Idle past 1732 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: Well then, how far is that?
quote: Maybe you should. The differences in density and aerodynamics indicate to me that this might be no problem. Now, since, it is your position that this is wrong, it is up to you to show why.
quote: But you have not shown this. Your only example consists of wind transport of quartz grains. This is completely irrelevant. Once again you have a weak grasp of what evidence is.
quote: First of all you have not shown that saltation is not a viable mechanism for transporting diatoms in a periglacial environment. Second you have not shown that such altitides are not attainable by diatoms of any size.
quote: Consider then dust storms that that cover hundreds of square miles...
quote: And just what does this have to do with diatoms? Please, for just once, give us some evidence that actually supports your position.
quote: Thank you for the lesson. However, it is not relevant to this discussion.
quote: Yeah, well, sometimes I get carried away with a train of thought. Especially when I don't particularly feel that a lot of work is warranted as a response. [This message has been edited by edge, 10-18-2002]
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Percipient;
Sometimes I only bother to reply because of the possible audience that maybe be reading this, perhaps some of them have an open mind, and they will see for themselves that there is some merit in what I have to say.
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Edge;
quote: Saltation movement of material causes a good deal of wear and tear, sort of like rolling your car down a mountain side, the method of transportation will be obvious by the damage done. The material I have found is in very good shape so saltation is not viable as an explanation for the transport mechanism. As for lifting diatoms to high altitudes, saltation is strictly a near surface phenomenon. The links and information already posted clearly show that particles as large as the diatoms and forams we are discussing, are not lifted to high altitudes in the atmosphere, unless you wish to invoke Wizard of Oz type wind effects.
quote: Still only a local transport event if it occurs over a sandy area, and the finer sand can of course be carried great distances. If you have a point to make here, you will have to state it more clearly, no point in me wasting my time shooting at shadows.
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edge Member (Idle past 1732 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: So, you still have no evidence to support your point. You have neither shown that saltation is not viable, nor that other possible methods of wind transport are ruled out. Well, regardless, you need to find some way of explaining marine diatoms hundreds of miles from the sea in Antarctica. I don't really care how it is done, but it is a fact that it happens. You cannot avoid the facts.
quote:quote: Right and just what size are those finer sand grains? And their specific gravity compared to diatoms? And just what is their source? How did the sand dunes of the Entrada Fm. get from their source to the far reaches of the Colorado Plateau? According to you this should be impossible. I dare say that you are being selective about the facts that you will entertain. If you are wasting your time, it has nothing to do with me. I have been trying to get you to focus on what you need to show a biblical flood and what is actual evidence.
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Edge;
quote: If you are referring to the Entrada dunes in the Great Sand Dunes National Monument National Park, the following quote from the brochure for the park is quite informative under the section titled 'geology.'
quote: Great Sand Dunes National Park and Preserve, Colorado Now I haven't been to this park nor have I read extensively on it's geology, but it sounds like the dunes there are a case of water transported sand that has been locally reworked by wind. It also sounds like the reason the dunes are found where they are is due to the wind being unable to carry the sand over the Sangre de Cristo mountains. Are these the dunes you wished to refer to? If so they hurt your position rather than help, it would appear you have only succeeded in placing your foot firmly in your mouth. As for saltation being a transport mechanism for large marine diatoms found in Wisconsin. Diatoms are made of glass and are in the form of hollow glass boxes made up of two over lapping halves that fit together. So you are saying that you believe these fine structures were transported by saltation which involves hitting the ground and being bounced and rolled along until picked up by the wind for a short hop and then hitting the ground again for well over thousand miles? As I pointed out in my last post, this type of wear and tear would be very evident and is not present in the samples I have examined.
quote: No, one certainly can't avoid the facts and as I have been pointing out to you diatoms come in a wide range of sizes and the smaller sizes are easily transported by wind while the larger sizes are not. I web site we referred to earlier in this thread on marine diatoms found in Antarctica stated " These diatomaceous sediment microclasts range in size from 25 to 40 microns, however, and do not preclude eolian transport." http://www.nsf.gov/pubs/1997/nsf97160/ch9.htm#fig1 The reason of course wind transport is not precluded is that they are small enough for the wind to pick up and carry. Even in Antarctica, the phyiscal laws governing wind transportation still apply, things above 57 microns are too large for long distance transportation by wind lofting. The larger sizes of marine diatoms and forams I have found here in the Midwest are much larger and would not be carried far by the wind.
quote: Now if I had made a statement like this you would have jumped all over me. Sounds like you are the one who is blindly believeing in things. I think I just heard the sound of your other foot entering your mouth.
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edge Member (Idle past 1732 days) Posts: 4696 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
quote: No, wmscott. The Entrada Formation is not found anywhere near the Great Sand Dunes NP. On the other hand it is found up to hundreds of miles from its source. Your lack of knowledge here does not surprise me.
quote: Irrelevant, unfortunately.
quote: Quite to the contrary, I'm afraid. See above.
quote: Hmm, I thought you said it was much less than that. Under 600 as I remember. Nevertheless, you have ignored the fact that diatoms have been transported hundreds of miles by wind, whether by saltation or not. You may as well face the facts.
quote: Well then maybe it wasn't saltation. Whatever it was, you need to come up with an explanation.
quote: No. As I remember it was 57 microns for SAND, not diatoms. And I don't really buy that anyway.
quote: Very well, but you still have to show this empirically.
quote:quote: You really don't get it. When we see something happens in reality, then we need an explanation. We can't just say that because sand grains cannot be transported this way, then it must be impossible. The difference between you and me is that you have derived a conclusion that is not a fact.
quote: I think your hearing is deficient.
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wmscott Member (Idle past 6273 days) Posts: 580 From: Sussex, WI USA Joined: |
Dear Edge;
You have been pretty cryptic about this but OK, so let me see if I have got this straight now, you are referring to the Entrada Formation which is a 166 million year old Jurassic sandstone formation in eastern Utah and western Colorado? You are really reaching deep into the past, couldn't you find a more recent example? And why are you bothering with the Entrada Formation when the there are far larger sandstone formations such as the Morrison Formation? I gather, based on the line of argument you have been pursuing, that you are stating that the location and extent of this sandstone deposit is evidence of wind lofting of very large sand grains far larger than what we see today? That would be a unique view point. Due to it's great age, the area of the Entrada formation has changed greatly and elevations have shifted and topographical features and been added and removed. Normal accepted means of transporting sand and sediment are adequate to explain the size and extent of the deposit. Perhaps you should explain your argument in more detail, from what I have found so far, the evidence fails to support your line of thought. One web site stated. " Entrada Sandstone Formation: Formed in both a marine and terrestrial environment. The earthy facies were formed in a marine environment, whereas the sandy facies were formed on land in wind blown sand dunes." For this deposit to have started as a marine deposit, it had to of course be underwater which indicates a very subdued topography, even after it was uplifted this area was probably still pretty flat and covered by sand which was reworked by the wind. Additional sediment was also carried in by the rivers which had previously run into the sea. As another site noted. "Here in northeast Utah, the Entrada Formation was deposited in river channels, with many of its thick sandstone layers created by flood deposits. Following deposition, the Entrada Formation was buried, tilted and uplifted by tectonic activity." It sounds like most of the sand was carried to the area by water, not wind and was locally reworked by wind to create the dunes. I fail to see why you believe large scale transport of large sand particles by wind lofting was required, it is certainly not a mainstream view, remember I am suppose to be the one here that is off the wall. On a side note on the Entrada sandstone formation, they ran the movie "Galaxyquest" on TV Thursday night and there as big as life in the scene with the rock monster was the deposit we have been arguing about. Apparently part of the movie was shot in Goblin Valley State Park in Utah, and since the rock monster was animated to match the background rocks, you could say he was made up of Entrada sandstone. So I got a double laugh watching the movie and thinking how you in effect are attacking me with the same monster. You stated that you disagreed with the 57 micron limit on wind lofting, why and for what reasons and what evidence do you base this on? From what I have been able to find, 40 microns is a more reasonable limit based on the maximum size found in wind lofted deposits. I have seen nothing to support a much larger lofting limit size. Density of diatoms and forams? Well they sink in water, which is why I used the reference to water droplet sizes, so figure a density a bit heavier than water.
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Percy Member Posts: 22490 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Then it must be your view that the entire world has a closed mind. There has been no indication that anyone accepts your arguments. How many Creationists have come to your support in this thread? Would that number be zero? I can remember only one other Creationist who posted here, TB, and he disagreed with you. The measure of your arguments and evidence is their ability to move the opinions of others, and by this yardstick they measure pretty short. I think it's time for you to take a step back and ask yourself how, mixing my metaphors, you can raise your batting average. --Percy
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Admin Director Posts: 13032 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
This thread has been closed, but only because it had become so long. Long threads have high overhead when rebuilding the HTML pages. A new thread with the same title has been created.
------------------ --EvC Forum Administrator
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