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Author Topic:   Evolution and Big Bang theory
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 16 of 22 (220684)
06-29-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by robinrohan
06-29-2005 11:10 AM


Not to mention the fact that if the sum total of energy/matter in the universe were not zero, we would not be here to even comptemplate it. Hows that for a balanced equation?

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 Message 15 by robinrohan, posted 06-29-2005 11:10 AM robinrohan has not replied

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notwise
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 22 (221523)
07-03-2005 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dead Parrot
06-28-2005 6:07 PM


Re: Another book...
I will find this book you speak of. Thank you for your recomendations.

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notwise
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 22 (221526)
07-03-2005 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by cavediver
06-29-2005 10:36 AM


If this is your argument then their is no way around it. No matter how the universe works you will always say "See look, what are the chances of the universe turning out like this!!!".

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notwise
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 22 (221530)
07-03-2005 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by robinrohan
06-29-2005 11:10 AM


Not special just one of the probabilities. If the chances of your father meeting your mother were 2,000,000 to one than you are that one. just like the lottery soomeones got to win and someones got to lose and no matter who wins it always a "miracle" that it happened.

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notwise
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 22 (221533)
07-03-2005 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by 1.61803
06-29-2005 12:50 PM


1.61803 writes:
Not to mention the fact that if the sum total of energy/matter in the universe were not zero, we would not be here to even comptemplate it.
And if it is zero than we have a shot of existing.... So what?

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 21 of 22 (221537)
07-03-2005 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by robinrohan
06-29-2005 11:10 AM


Designed?
Exactly. And if on one fateful day during the war, my father's train had arrived a little bit later or a litle bit earlier, he would never have met my mother--for they met at a train station; and the being known as myself would never have come into this world. I was designed, which makes me feel rather special.
No, actually your father's train was 10 minutes too early. He was "designed" to meet someone else. You weren't intended, just one of many happy accidents.

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3633 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 22 of 22 (221607)
07-04-2005 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by notwise
07-03-2005 10:19 PM


No matter how the universe works you will always say "See look, what are the chances of the universe turning out like this!!!".
No, becasue out of the infinitude of possible "universes" only an infinitessimal fraction of those are capable of bringing forth life. You only have to tweak the fundemental constants by very small margins to change the nature of the universe completely, so that we don't have stars (or for not very long), we don't have the elements, we don't have water, etc, etc. Why should we exist at all? We live in a very special universe, simply becasue we are here to notice that it is very special. This smacks of design. I won't always say that the universe has a very small chance of being this way, because in virtually all cases, I (and the rest of life) won't exist!
BUT if we allow for not just one "universe", but a large number (possibly infinite) then of course there are going to be universes (no matter how improbable) where conditions are going to be suitable for our existence. Then surprise, surprise, we find ourselves in such a universe!
We have long had mechanisms for "infinite" numbers of "universes" - the oscillating version of big bang was the first I guess, though it was pure conjecture and not actually a real solution of GR. Here you have an infinite sequence of big bangs and big crunches, each universe following sequentially after the previous. There have been subsequent models in extended GR which mimic this kind of behaviour, and plenty of black-hole solutions provide an infinite number of universes (tho' whether phyisically viable is another matter). Then Linde (amongst others) in the 90s proposed his bubble nucleation idea, where "universes" are springing up all over an encompassing "multi-verse". This has been given a nice formal setting in M-theory with our colliding branes providing the mechanism for the nucleation.
What I am saying is that our observable universe is so cut-out for life, it's incredible... so incredible that it credibly gives rise to design arguments. BUT if enough universes can come and go then the incredible just becomes the possible, if not the probable. And the design argument is invalidated.
You cannot "prove" God by looking at the universe. To leave fingerprints, you require grease, and God does not have greasy hands :-)

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