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Author Topic:   A reinterpretation of the Creation Account
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 36 (229357)
08-03-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Jor-el
08-03-2005 4:05 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics?
No, I don't see the implications of such an action.
Where did I say there was no sin?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Jor-el, posted 08-03-2005 4:05 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Jor-el, posted 08-03-2005 6:26 PM jar has replied

  
Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 36 (229408)
08-03-2005 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
08-03-2005 4:45 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics?
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The "wherefore" relates back to Romans 3:19-23 and may be regarded as a continuation of the discussion of the universality of sin, interrupted ; Romans 3:24-5:11; by the passage on justification and its results.
have sinned
The first sin wrought the moral ruin of the race. The demonstration is simple.
(1) Death is universal (Romans 4:12,14), all die: sinless infants, moral people, religious people, equally with the depraved. For a universal effect there must be a universal cause; that cause is a state of universal sin (Romans 5:12).
(2) But this universal state must have had a cause. It did. The consequence of Adam's sin was that "the many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19)--"By the offence of one judgment came upon all men unto condemnation" (Romans 5:18).
(3) Personal sins are not meant here. From Adam to Moses death reigned (Romans 5:14), although, there being no law, personal guilt was not imputed (Romans 5:13). Accordingly, from Genesis 4:7 to Exodus 29:14 the sin-offering is not once mentioned. Then, since physical death from Adam to Moses was not due to the sinful acts of those who die (Romans 5:13), it follows that it was due to a universal sinful state, or nature, and that state is declared to be out inheritance from Adam.
(4) the moral state of fallen man is described in Scripture Genesis 6:5; 1 Kings 8:46; Psalms 14:1-3; 39:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 18:11; Mark 7:20,23; Romans 1:21; 2:1-29; 3:9-19 ; 7:24; 8:7; John 3:6; 1 Corinthians 2:14; 2 Corinthians 3:14; 4:4; Galatians 5:19-21; Ephesians 2:1-3,11,12; 4:18-22; Colossians 1:21; Hebrews 3:13; James 4:14; 1 Corinthians 15:22.
Now, we might think that this original sin didn't have an effect on humanity after Adam but the results are visible when someone dies. That is the result of Adams sin.
Today we might think it natural but this wasn't what God had in store for humanity when he made Adam and Eve.
Jesus didn't just die for our petty little sins but because it was the way to reverse this universal sin or condemnation on mankind.

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 08-03-2005 4:45 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 08-03-2005 6:28 PM Jor-el has replied
 Message 34 by jar, posted 08-03-2005 6:47 PM Jor-el has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 33 of 36 (229412)
08-03-2005 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jor-el
08-03-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics?
(1) Death is universal (Romans 4:12,14), all die: sinless infants, moral people, religious people, equally with the depraved. For a universal effect there must be a universal cause; that cause is a state of universal sin (Romans 5:12).
If we all die becuase of original sin, but Jesus was sacrificed to erase that sin, why do people, at the least Christians, still die? If Jesus wiped it away, its effects should be gone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jor-el, posted 08-03-2005 6:26 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Jor-el, posted 08-03-2005 7:27 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 34 of 36 (229425)
08-03-2005 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jor-el
08-03-2005 6:26 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics?
Yes. All of those things are there. I do not dispute that. It's rather what is being said.
People die because death is a normal part of life. It has nothing to do with sin, original or otherwise.
It happened even before the Garden of Eden, is happening now and will likely be true in the future.
The first sin wrought the moral ruin of the race.
Sorry but I don't think that is what the story in Genesis is about at all.
But I see no reason for the concept of Original Sin. Start a thread on that and we can discuss it at length.
We're getting far afield. What does this have to do with the OP?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jor-el, posted 08-03-2005 6:26 PM Jor-el has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jor-el, posted 08-03-2005 7:10 PM jar has not replied

  
Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 36 (229444)
08-03-2005 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
08-03-2005 6:47 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics?
Nothing at all but discussion of the OP has no takers.

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 08-03-2005 6:47 PM jar has not replied

  
Jor-el
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 36 (229459)
08-03-2005 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Rahvin
08-03-2005 6:28 PM


Re: Mental Gymnastics?
The fall from grace has clear effects on all of humanity and creation in general. We still suffer these effects today (death).
(And in answer to your question...) Jesus died for our sins and removed the judgement upon us once we accept him as saviour, but he did not remove the effects themselves.
That is why the world is still full of those injustices that make us ask where God is in all of this. We (all creation) are all still suffering due to the sin commited by Adam and Eve.
The effects of death are not so much a curse on humanity but a removal of the giver of life which is the "Tree of life". Mans' immortality does not exist without access to the tree and the only way to get access is to be admitted into heaven.
Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the TREE of LIFE, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
You might ask then how death 1st came into existence.
Answer: it has always been around from the beginning of creation.
Man was only immortal in the garden because at the time he had access to the tree of life. That was why he was expelled after the "sin", so access could be denied.
Ge 3:22-23: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the TREE of LIFE, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Rahvin, posted 08-03-2005 6:28 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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