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Author Topic:   Land Mammal to Whale transition: fossils
randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 16 of 302 (229521)
08-03-2005 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Yaro
08-03-2005 11:24 PM


Re: spectrum is not a good analogy
The whole group experiences genetic drift. That's how species form.
It doesn't matter if the whole species evolve or a group evolves, the point is when that species would no longer be able to sexually reproduce with the prior form, assuming one would be present.
That's an easy line of demarcation for a loose definition of speciation in this context.
So how many such speciation events do you estimate would need to occur?

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 Message 13 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 11:24 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Yaro, posted 08-03-2005 11:46 PM randman has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6522 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 17 of 302 (229523)
08-03-2005 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
08-03-2005 11:33 PM


Re: spectrum is not a good analogy
So how many such speciation events do you estimate would need to occur?
I dunno. How manny "breediations" occured between wolf and chihuauah?
I mean seriously, how would you suggest even going about finding out such knowledge? It's not quite something that can be infered from evidence.
Further, species is a blury line. Many spiecies do infact have offspring, and some of them fertile offspring. I belive whales are geneticaly close enugh to do the same thing.
So I wouldn't make reproductive viability the line of demarcation, concidering that currently, many species of whale and dolphin can interbreed.
So ya, I don't know and I don't think anyone has a way of definitevely knowing it. Unless you can propose a way of finding it out?

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 Message 16 by randman, posted 08-03-2005 11:33 PM randman has replied

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6522 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 18 of 302 (229524)
08-03-2005 11:53 PM


Whats a species?
The Wiki has an excelent article which includes the various reasons for declaring a group of animals a species.
Species - Wikipedia An excerpt:
Definitions of species
The definition of a species given above as taken from Mayr, is somewhat idealistic. Since it assumes sexual reproduction, it leaves the term undefined for a large class of organisms that reproduce asexually. Biologists frequently do not know whether two morphologically similar groups of organisms are "potentially" capable of interbreeding. Further, there is considerable variation in the degree to which hybridization may succeed under natural and experimental conditions, or even in the degree to which some organisms use sexual reproduction between individuals to breed. Consequently, several lines of thought in the definition of species exist:
* A morphological species is a group of organisms that have a distinctive form: for example, we can distinguish between a chicken and a duck because they have different shaped bills and the duck has webbed feet. Species have been defined in this way since well before the beginning of recorded history. Although much criticised, the concept of morphological species remains the single most widely used species concept in everyday life, and still retains an important place within the biological sciences, particularly in the case of plants.
* The biological species or isolation species concept identifies a species as a set of actually or potentially interbreeding organisms. This is generally the most useful formulation for scientists working with living examples of the higher taxa like mammals, fish, and birds, but meaningless for organisms that do not reproduce sexually. It distinguishes between the theoretical possibility of interbreeding and the actual likelihood of gene flow between populations. For example, it is possible to cross a horse with a donkey and produce offspring, however they remain separate speciesin this case for two different reasons: first because horses and donkeys do not normally interbreed in the wild, and second because the fruit of the union is rarely fertile. The key to defining a biological species is that there is no significant cross-flow of genetic material between the two populations.
* A mate-recognition species is defined as a group of organisms that are known to recognise one another as potential mates. Like the isolation species concept above, it applies only to organisms that reproduce sexually.
* A phylogenetic or evolutionary or Darwinian species is a group of organisms that shares an ancestor; a lineage that maintains its integrity with respect to other lineages through both time and space. At some point in the progress of such a group, members may diverge from one another: when such a divergence becomes sufficiently clear, the two populations are regarded as separate species.
* See also microspecies under apomixis, for species that reproduce without meiosis or mitosis so that each generation is genetically identical to the previous generation.
In practice, these definitions often coincide, and the differences between them are more a matter of emphasis than of outright contradiction. Nevertheless, no species concept yet proposed is entirely objective, or can be applied in all cases without resorting to judgement. Given the complexity of life, some have argued that such an objective definition is in all likelihood impossible, and biologists should settle for the most practical definition.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-03-2005 11:55 PM

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 19 of 302 (229526)
08-04-2005 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Yaro
08-03-2005 11:46 PM


Re: spectrum is not a good analogy
I mean seriously, how would you suggest even going about finding out such knowledge?
First, I would expect evolutionists to do this if they want to properly assess their data.
But my layman's suggestions would be to try to determine:
frequency and likelihood of a beneficial mutation likely to be selected for
the level of change a single such mutation could affect and the average size of one
how many such changes and thus mutations would be needed, on average, to create a speciation event in mammals
Also, I realize there are interfertile species among whales, but I put that out there as a line for demarcation because we are just talking about getting to whales, and it doesn't matter that much for this discussion if we make species a little broader and draw the line at sexual reproduction. In other words, I was giving evolutionists here some leeway to make the steps smaller than they would be otherwise, but to still show the level of mutations needed for the larger step and number of "speciation events" needed.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 20 of 302 (229527)
08-04-2005 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Yaro
08-03-2005 11:53 PM


Re: Whats a species?
Asexual reproduction and a lot of that is not germane to this thread. We can work with a broader definition of species defined as a new group that cannot interbreed with the old group and produce fertile offspring. Exact parameters are not necessary for a gross estimate of speciation events, defined in this looser manner.

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Arkansas Banana Boy
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 302 (229551)
08-04-2005 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-03-2005 7:27 PM


Whale info
I found some info on whale evolution
http://www.neoucom.edu/...Thewissen/whale_origins/index.html
ABB

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 Message 1 by randman, posted 08-03-2005 7:27 PM randman has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 22 of 302 (229560)
08-04-2005 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by randman
08-03-2005 7:27 PM


Some actual answers for you
Specifically, how many speciation events would be needed to take place to evolve a land mammal to a genuine whale?
We don't know.
And how many mutations necessary to create a single speciation event?
Good question. I'm sure, once we have come to understand the genome we'll be able to come up with a minimum number and perhaps a maximum number too. However, I suspect that the answers are going to vary from species to species individual to individual. In short, we don't know.
Let's call these speciation events "steps". I would think evolutionists, considering their dogmatism, would have fairly full theories as to the needed steps involved, with considerable range of course.
The answer here is simple, either evolutionist's dogma is ill placed or there is no dogma in evolutionists.

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 302 (229709)
08-04-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by randman
08-04-2005 12:13 AM


Bad question redux
quote:
First, I would expect evolutionists to do this if they want to properly assess their data.
You may expect this, but no one is obligated to meet your expectations, especially when they are not reasonable.
It's too bad you didn't like my analogy, because the point is valid and germane. It is possible to consider a historical event verified by finding a relatively small number of pieces of evidence; it is not necessary to have to provide the excruciating amount of detail that you require.

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 Message 19 by randman, posted 08-04-2005 12:13 AM randman has replied

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 Message 24 by randman, posted 08-04-2005 2:31 PM Chiroptera has replied

randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 24 of 302 (229781)
08-04-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Chiroptera
08-04-2005 11:25 AM


Re: Bad question redux
Your analogy breaks down in a number of ways. You at least know already what your family is. You have the birth certificates, for example.
A better example would be that we found you one day as a baby or something, with no oral history, and we were trying to see who dropped you off or something along those lines. We studies your features and maybe concluded you were Caucasian and noted a lot of Caucasions immigrated at such and such time.
It's even worse than that because we are talking about a single species travelling and still can verify the steps exist. We know Ohio, Oregon, etc,...are there.
But we don't even know the pathway, the steps, or even if there are steps, that exist for the land mammal to whale evolution.
But here is my real problem with your post. My questions are educational, aimed at determining the level of real data out there. You use an analogy that has something on the order of a 1000 times more data available, and all sorts of things verifiable, and thus are obscuring the truth.
The truth seems to be that not one single speciation event is well-documented in the land mammal to whale evolution, and there appears to be no thought given to the number of speciation events that would be needed to create this evolutionary path, and thus no analysis done to consider whether we have substantial data it occurred or not, in terms of the fossil record.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2005 11:25 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 08-04-2005 3:02 PM randman has replied
 Message 26 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2005 3:03 PM randman has replied

Yaro
Member (Idle past 6522 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 25 of 302 (229786)
08-04-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
08-04-2005 2:31 PM


Re: Bad question redux
The truth seems to be that not one single speciation event is well-documented in the land mammal to whale evolution...
What would you consider "well-documented"? A 2000 fossil unbroken chain? Sorry man, it's just not gonna happen. The world just don't work that way.
...and there appears to be no thought given to the number of speciation events that would be needed to create this evolutionary path...
It's an irrelevant question. We know speciation occures, because we whitness it in living species.
...and thus no analysis done to consider whether we have substantial data it occurred or not, in terms of the fossil record.
Well, obviously you are not aware of the vast amounts of data that can be gathered about a creature simply from it's bones. Forensic detectives can infer alot about human bones. How the person died, what race/sex/age he was. It's much the same thing we do with whale bones.
Comparative biology is an excelent tool. Infact it has long been theorized that whales evolved from even-toed ungulates. Why? Because of whales bone structure as well as the bone structure of ancient proto-whale.
And infact genetics has born this out, as whales are quite soundly placed in the genetic liniage of pigs, cows, deer, etc. You would be surprosed to note that whales are actually closely related to hippos.
How would YOU explain the comparative biology of the bones as well as the genetic evidence linking whales to the even toed ungulates, more specificaly the hippo?
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-04-2005 03:04 PM

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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 302 (229787)
08-04-2005 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by randman
08-04-2005 2:31 PM


Re: Bad question redux
quote:
A better example would be that we found you one day as a baby or something, with no oral history, and we were trying to see who dropped you off or something along those lines.
Actually, that is not a better example. Scientists already realized, before the fossils were found, that whales evolved from some line of artiodactyls (although which line was disputed). The "oral history", so to speak, was already known -- it was only left to find out the stops along the way.
But let's not get too caught up on the details of the analogy. The point is that a historical event can be considered confirmed with a relatively few pieces of data even if the entire history is not known in complete excruciating detail.
Scientists had a hypothesis: whales evolved from artiodactyls. So a prediction is made: there must have been creatures alive in the past that showed characteristics intermediate between artiodactyls and modern whales. Notice that there is no other reason to expect that such creatures ever existed. But the theory of common descent, as well as data collected from taxonomy, makes a definite prediction that these creatures did exist. Now we have found the fossil remains of creatures that show intermediate characteristics between artiodactyls and whales. What is more, they are found in the right strata: more artiodactyl, less whale-like in lower strata; less artiodactyl, more whale-like in higher strata, exactly as the theory of evolution says that they should be.
This is what counts as confirmation. You make a prediction, based on the theory. When that prediction is verified, it is confirmation.
The theory of evolution predicted that creatures that have characteristics intermediate between artiodactyls and whales should have existed in the past. This was a prediction. This prediction has been confirmed; there were such creatures alive.
I really don't understand why some people are having trouble with this.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 27 of 302 (229821)
08-04-2005 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Yaro
08-04-2005 3:02 PM


Re: Bad question redux
What would you consider "well-documented"? A 2000 fossil unbroken chain? Sorry man, it's just not gonna happen.
Read the OP. I laid out the terms of documentation, and it's not showing 2000 fossil chain.
Specifically, one step can be well-documented as having evolved if you can show the immediate prior species it evolved from and immediate species it evolved to, or maybe just the one it evolved from.
That would not document the land mammal to whale evolution, but at least you could say the species in question is documented in the fossil record to have evolved from a prior species.
But you cannot, can you?
The fossil record does not appear to record one speciation event among the hundreds or thousands needing to occur. That's the point.
If you want to explain why the fossil record should not reasonably do so, then start a thread and we can discuss that aspect of the issue, or maybe even do so here, but the point of this thread is to get some agreement on what the fossil record data is, and what it isn't, and it does not seem to document one of the many speciation events needed, right?
So let's start with the narrow focus of the OP.
The actual fossils do not show one speciation event in the theorized evolutionary chain, correct?
What it does show are species that are considered by evolutionists to be intermediary forms due to similarities, but in reality, it does not appear evolutionists know or even have ventured a guess on how many "forms" in terms of speciation events are needed to create the transition, and thus how many mutations are needed, and thus the likelihood of this scenario being plausible in terms of the data.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Yaro, posted 08-04-2005 3:02 PM Yaro has replied

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 Message 29 by Yaro, posted 08-04-2005 5:10 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 28 of 302 (229823)
08-04-2005 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Chiroptera
08-04-2005 3:03 PM


Re: Bad question redux
The point is that a historical event can be considered confirmed with a relatively few pieces of data even if the entire history is not known in complete excruciating detail.
That's vague and largely inadequate if not downright false.
What defines relatively "few pieces of data"?
The truth is the less data, the less we can determine accurately, and as this thread shows, there is nearly no data in the fossil record.
Your claim is that prior to the fossils being discovered, "scientists knew" whales evolved along a certain path.
I think that is a gross overstatement, totally absurd on the face of it. Scientists hypothesize based on the assumption that whales could only come into being via ToE. So the primary evidence is an assumption.
Moreover, this thread is about the fossil data, and you are basically now arguing the fossil data is unimportant in terms of knowing whale evolutionary paths. I appreciate you are a person of some faith, but that's all that is, faith that whales evolved.
Historically, the fossil record thus far appears to:
1. Not document one single speciation event in whale evolution.
2. Provide only a handful of potential "steps" or species that evolutionists "believe" were involved in whale evolution.
3. The fossil record does not show the many hundreds or thousands of species that lived over millions of years that would document this theorized transition, and the fossil record, as point 1 states, does not even show one single speciation event in this entire theorized chain of events.
Conclusion: The fossil record does not document whale evolution, but is weak evidence at best, showing potential intermediary forms, but not a slow, gradual transition, not even one small part of a slow gradual transition, but just some species appear fully formed, distinct, and are posited by evolutionists to be intermediaries due to similarities, and evidence outside of the fossil record, which are not the subject of this thread.
Can we agree on that?
This message has been edited by randman, 08-04-2005 05:11 PM

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Yaro
Member (Idle past 6522 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 29 of 302 (229824)
08-04-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by randman
08-04-2005 5:00 PM


Re: Bad question redux
What it does show are species that are considered by evolutionists to be intermediary forms due to similarities, but in reality, it does not appear evolutionists know or even have ventured a guess on how many "forms" in terms of speciation events are needed to create the transition, and thus how many mutations are needed, and thus the likelihood of this scenario being plausible in terms of the data.
This is where I think you are mistaken. You think evolutionists are just picking stuff they think "looks similar". What you are failing to take into account is that these aren't folks pulling things out their butts and making arbitrary descisions about what looks like something else, there is real science to this.
As I pointed out, similar techniques used to determin the race/sex/age of a human skeleton (from even a partial skeleton) are employed to explore the relationships between related species.
Let me put it to you like this:
You find 4 skeletons, a wolf, a fox, a dog, and a coyote. They all look pretty similar right? That's because they are in the canidea family.
So if I find an ancient whale skeleton and compare it to a modern dolphin for example, I can make some rational deduction about the relatedness of the species, can't I? I can also note the age of that species, and assess wether or not it exists anymore. If it dosn't exist I can surely say it's at least an ancestor, not necisseraly the main line, but somewere far back on the family tree.
So, what's wrong with this?
Further, you didn't answer my question about genetic evidence. Please do, it's in the previous post.
This message has been edited by Yaro, 08-04-2005 05:12 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4925 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 30 of 302 (229826)
08-04-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Yaro
08-04-2005 5:10 PM


Re: Bad question redux
I am sorry, but if you want to propose a thread on genetic evidence for whale evolution, please do so, but this thread is strictly about the fossil record, what it shows, what it should show, and what it does not show, and strictly in the context of whale evolution.
If you have something to add, please do so, but trying to divert the conversation to an alternative thread is wrong.
Clearly you want to do that because you think the genetic evidence is somehow stronger, and that's fine, except the point of this thread is to discover and demonstrate the degree that the fossil record actually documents land mammal to whale evolution, not that the fossil record could be considered documentation in some manner if we look at other evidence, and then view a few fossils as clues or some such.
Particularly, critics are often proclaimed as excessively demanding the gaps be filled in. So let's see what gaps are filled in already, and see what gaps are not filled in.
What percentage of speciation events are documented?
It appears the answer is 0%.
So the argument critics are merely employing sophistry in terms of the fossil record is absurd. The critics are right. The fossil record does not document land mammal to whale evolution.
That's the truth of it.
Why it does not, or whether it should or not, I suppose are acceptable for this thread topic, and maybe you guys should argue that or something, but clearly the fossil record does not document speciation events, not even one it seems, in the land mammal to whale evolution transition.

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