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Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
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Author | Topic: A Closer Look at Pat Robertson | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I'm jumping back into the game to address what I felt where some unsupportable statements about Pat Robertson in the thread devoted to his recent, despicable remarks advocating the assassination of Hugo Chavez.
While I felt that the heavy-handed ridicule directed towards Robertson was inappropriate, neither did I find the attempts by Faith and randman to style him as some kind of humanitarian and good Christian very truthful, either. So I'd like to share some facts I recently learned that speak to the character and conduct of Pat Robertson, and invite his defenders to respond to the allegations if they wish. Also I'll close with some remarks on why I find the response of the Christian and evangelical communities rather hollow. The Wiki article on Pat Robertson alludes to several controversies surrounding his person. Out of deference to evangelical positions on redemption, I'll refrain from judgement on the substantiated reports of his pre-conversion conduct (drinking, sex with prostitutes, etc.) Embezzlement from his own humanitarian funds I might as well start with this since I find it the worst. According to columnist Greg Palast:
quote: According to one of the pilots hired, ostensibly to fly planes full of medical supplies and personnel to aid Rwandans:
quote: While Virginia's investigation did turn up enough evidence to charge Operation Blessing with violations of its non-profit status, Virginia's Attorney General Mark Earley declined to prosecute. Earley had recieved a $35,000 campaign contribution from Pat Robertson. Support for humanitarian abuses Contrary to Faith's attempts to promote Robertson as a humanitarian and philanthropist, Robertson's business interests support human rights abuses in several African countries. Several times, on his 700 Club program, he has supported African dictators who have committed war crimes, such as Mobutu Sese Seko and Charles Taylor. Here's Robertson advocating on Taylor's behalf on his program, via CBS:
quote: What Robertson did not mention on that program were his $8 million dollars of investments in Liberian gold mines. Robertson's aforementioned Congolese (then called Zaire) diamond mines? Human rights disasters:
quote: (This is why Mrs. Crashfrog sports a lab sapphire and not a diamond on her engagement ring. That, and we were really frickin' poor.) from No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.fguide.org/Bulletin/conflictdiamonds.htm (supported with references down at the bottom.) Outrageous calls for violence We've already discussed his call for assassination (what Jon Stewart has hilariously called the "Patwa"), and his prior suggestion of violence against the State Department has been alluded to. These statements don't represent isolated instances of "wacky" behavior - Robertson is only 75, a little too early to be having "senior moments" - but a continual pattern of calls for violence against persons and groups he percieves as being contrary to his business and political interests. (As his current cash-cow, the Christian Broadcasting Network, caters to conservative evangelicals, these business interests are often, I believe, mistaken for religious dogma. Robertson decries homosexuality not because it's against the Bible, but because it puts money in his pocket.) The hollow protests of the evangelical community Both Faith and randman have decried Robertson's recent statements, and for that they should be commended. Indeed, as they have stated, no Christian organization is on the record as supporting Robertson in this regard. So the fuck what? I find it very disingenuous for Faith, randman, and indeed the entire evangelical community to act as though their responsibility in this matter ends with lip service. The evangelical community has done nothing to truly extricate themselves financially and politically from Robertson; he continues to be allowed to speak on behalf of evangelicals and profit from their support of his assorted ministries, his CBN channel, his political aspirations and organizations (most notably the various incarnations of the Christian Coalition, which he started), and his attacks on the Federal judiciary. The pattern is familiar. Robertson shoots his mouth off, Christians condemn him, and then nothing. No calls for ABC to cease broadcasting of the 700 Club. No boycotts of those who advertise in or around that timeslot. No calls for cable companies to drop CBN. No calls for the FBI to rescind the award they gave to him in 1978, the least they could do considering he's called for the mass murder of government officials. No calls for President Bush to cease meeting with Robertson, something he has done many times in the past. Faith and Randman, and others, I'm heartened by your vocal repudiations of his comments on this forum, but what next? Don't you think you have a little more to do? How about some letters to your local ABC affiliates and cable providers? How about some letters to your senators asking the FBI to rethink the decision to award him a Department of Justice award in 1978? For a man who regularly makes terroristic proclamations against democratically elected leaders and innocent civilian personnel, Robertson enjoys remarkable wealth and enviable status among the evangelical Christian community, something they appear very reticent to do something about. Faith and Randman's rejections of his comments are hollow indeed unless they're prepared to take steps to distance their communities from this dangerous and amoral figure.
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mick Member (Idle past 5014 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
Hi Crashfrog,
As a general rule, ANYBODY who owns a Congolese diamond mine is a monster. People at this forum should please read up on the diamond trade, especially labour practices in those mines, and check that if you buy jewellery containig diamonds that they are from a country that doesn't use slave labour and currently doesn't have a civil war going on - because the money from the diamond trade funds extreme violence. Mick
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Accusations always sound righteous until the other side is heard, and how will the other side be heard on this forum? I don't have that information but without it, judging the man on the basis of these allegations would be foolish.
As for your call to punish Robertson for his mistakes, sorry. When you and the Left in general apologize for your outrageous uncalled for remarks against Bush and his supporters I'll give it another thought. This message has been edited by Faith, 08-26-2005 08:06 PM
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: Small people talk about people, Great people talk about ideas. - some famous woman porteus@gmail.com
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Accusations always sound righteous until the other side is heard, and how will the other side be heard on this forum? I was hoping that you or randman would present it. I was unable to uncover any "other side" in my own research, but I imagine you have your own thoughts on how hard I probably looked.
I don't have that information but without it, judging the man on the basis of these allegations would be foolish. What if you don't have that information because that information doesn't exist? What if there is no other side? Haven't you just essentially argued that the man is innocent of these actions because all the evidence says he's guilty? I'm trying to turn over a new leaf, here, and proceed from a much more respectful and evidenced basis than I have in the past, but this post of yours is reminding me why I post the way I do. You really haven't addressed my points at all; you've simply asserted that information exists that exonerates him without actually telling us what that is. Additionally you've attempted to erect a smokescreen and drag us off-topic by bringing up the left's criticisms of Bush.
When you and the Left in general apologize for your outrageous uncalled for remarks against Bush and his supporters I'll give it another thought. I've made no remarks against Bush that weren't called for and supported by the evidence; moreover comments about Bush are not on topic in this thread. That goes for absolutely everybody. I won't be baited off-topic in my own thread.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Ad-hominem attacks against my person are the best you can marshall to defend Robertson?
Disappointing, and also completely off-topic. Robertson's status as a humanitarian is the topic here, not how large a person I am.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3990 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
quote: "some famous woman", huh? Good work. Welcome back, crash. Although I personally cannot find any ridicule too heavy-handed where Robertson is concerned, I appreciate the material you present. This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 08-26-2005 09:38 PM
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
We are not a court of law here. You have levied some serious allegations. If the other side doesn't get a hearing I'd say you are seriously at fault for slanderous hearsay. I do not KNOW that contrary information exists, and I did not say I did. It is simply a general rule that you can't condemn a man without hearing his side of it. I appreciate your saying you are turning over a new leaf, and I did not mean to be provocative with my statement about Bush. I simply regard your statements about him to be as offensive and false as others here allege that Robertson's have been.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
It is simply a general rule that you can't condemn a man without hearing his side of it. I'm listening. Are you willing to present his side?
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1267 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
I have recently read an article, in which it states that the "conflict" diamond or blood diamond atrocities no longer exist.
This was brought to my attention after a rapper named Kanye West made a song, with lyrics describing the conflict diamond problem in Africa with his song Diamonds(From Sierra Leonne). The world wide humanitarian agency "Amnesty" has apparently worked hard over the years in the 90's and now the diamond atrocities which are mentioned in your post are virtually nonexistent now. 99% of killing and forced child labor has stopped. The horrors you mentioned most certainly happened. But it would seem Pat Robertson would have had to participate before the 90's most likely I'll get that article hold on.* "Vibe.com, did Kanye do his homework" Page not found – VIBE.com I am in no way trying to justify Pat Robertson, I don't know him. Judging by his words and apparent actions I don't want to. Just trying to establish a timeline. This message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-26-2005 10:50 PM This message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-26-2005 10:51 PM
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
I don't get why people insist on the insults to Pat R. We all understand that his views are radically different than that of the Christ. I thought picking on the poor guy would 'get old'.
quote: quote: I will respond with something that I have known for a very long time, when a preacher who was very old stood up and said something that resonates loudly as truth. He talked about 2 Timothy, when in a letter to Tim, Paul talked of "the world", and warned him to "stay away from the things of this world". In Herman Hesse's Siddhartha, the word "samsara" meant the things that today would make us forget about one's self, or God, or life, destiny. This would entail anything immediately gratifying, things that satisfy, but do nothing for me. Commonly called sin. Samsara in Buddhism, the things of this world from Paul in Christianity, all block ourselves from our purpose. I would say that Pat R.'s 700 club, and his TV network are of this world, and that we shouldn't dwell on these things. That's what I was attempting to say, when I posted that quote I guess, but you gave me trouble, so I had to explain, which is good I guess. This message has been edited by prophex, 08-26-2005 11:10 PM porteus@gmail.com
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
quote: Forgot her name, but the point is clear in the quote. porteus@gmail.com
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I thought picking on the poor guy would 'get old'. I don't understand in what sense you think I've insulted him, or have picked on him. I have, on the other hand, presented a factual case that Robertson probably diverted resources from a non-profit humanitarian aid mission to fund for-profit diamond mining, and then escaped prosecution for that act because of a monetary contribution to the Virginia Attorney General. (That's more commonly known as a "bribe.") It's fine if, like Faith, you opt not to challenge the factual basis of my post. But if all you're going to do in this thread is misrepresent the content of my OP, then it would be better for you not to participate at all. Don't you agree? And if you object to the subject of the thread as a whole, then your side shouldn't have described Robertson as such a great humanitarian before you did the research to see if that was the case.
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joshua221  Inactive Member |
hehe, read the edit, sorry!
quote: I can see the future
quote: My side? Great humanitarian? Back up these accusations, I already knew this guy and his whole network was a fluke. This message has been edited by prophex, 08-26-2005 11:13 PM This message has been edited by prophex, 08-26-2005 11:15 PM porteus@gmail.com
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1494 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Great article. Good find. And I love the context - rappers and diamond jewelry.
The horrors you mentioned most certainly happened. But it would seem Pat Robertson would have had to participate before the 90's most likely Remember how I said that his diamond mine was in DR Congo?
quote: Probably they mean the other Congo, but due to the similarity between the Republic of Congo and the Democratic Republic of Congo, it's ambiguous. Certainly violence and civil strife continue to wrack DR Congo, and has for decades. Amnesty International has some critical things to say about the effecacy of the "Kimberly Process" in general.
99% of killing and forced child labor has stopped. In many countries, I hope so. It's not clear to what extent this can be substantiated for the mines of DR Congo, and even if labor conditions have improved the sale of diamonds to fund warfare still occurs, and was during the time period in question.
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