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Author Topic:   A Closer Look at Pat Robertson
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 46 of 160 (237635)
08-27-2005 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by randman
08-27-2005 3:25 AM


Re: Ownage
Robertson has made a number of shrewd business deals. Probably the most lucrative was the purchase of a number of FM radio stations in the 1960s
Im very confused. Is this the same Pat Robertson who was poor? I have a good job, as does my wife. I can't buy one, let alone several FM radio stations.
Where did PR get the money to purchase a radio station?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:25 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:43 AM Nuggin has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 47 of 160 (237636)
08-27-2005 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by randman
08-27-2005 3:36 AM


Re: Caution about internet information
Rand, you are replying to me about a post in which I reply to Faith's saying that she won't accept any information unless it comes from a conservative site.
I assume you're CNN information is correct.
I also agree that the "Bush is a child killer Satanist guy" is way outthere.
I, however, don't think you have proven that Crashfrog's info is incorrect. It read to me like a listing of PR's properties and where he's spending his money.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:36 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:47 AM Nuggin has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 48 of 160 (237637)
08-27-2005 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Nuggin
08-27-2005 3:36 AM


Re: Ownage
I don't know, but whem he first went into the ministry, he was poor, very poor, from what I have heard.
As far as the timing on when it changed, I really don't know.
If he came up with the money to get these stations, maybe he did it prior to going into the ministry or borrowed from his family.
Why don't you or someone from your side spend even a little time investigating whether your charges and opinions have any merit?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Nuggin, posted 08-27-2005 3:36 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Nuggin, posted 08-27-2005 3:51 AM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 49 of 160 (237639)
08-27-2005 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Nuggin
08-27-2005 3:40 AM


Re: Caution about internet information
Crash maintains the use of the planes is fraud. The CNN report indicates that the planes were paid for, or that was the claim.
It's not illegal for the non-profit org to lease it's equipment. The state did not prosecute. Crash and others are making a mountain out of a molehill.
Maybe PR should not have been in business with the likes of Charles Taylor. He lost over 7 million. I think that's lesson enough, and I'm not about to play God and tell the world he is a crook for making an error in judgment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Nuggin, posted 08-27-2005 3:40 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Nuggin, posted 08-27-2005 3:53 AM randman has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 50 of 160 (237640)
08-27-2005 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
08-27-2005 3:43 AM


Re: Ownage
Why don't you or someone from your side spend even a little time investigating whether your charges and opinions have any merit?
What charges? I merely asked for clarification. You were saying he was very poor until he bought that radio station.
All I wanted to know is, did he get the money to buy the radio station by asking his followers for cash for charities.
As for investigating whether our opinions have any merit -- don't bait me into pulling in unfounded opinions of yours from other strings, it'll throw the whole thing off topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:43 AM randman has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 51 of 160 (237641)
08-27-2005 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by randman
08-27-2005 3:47 AM


Re: Caution about internet information
It's not illegal for the non-profit org to lease it's equipment.
This is true, but you have to admit, it's pretty shady when an organization run by PR is leasing equipment to a business run by PR. That's a heck of a lot different than a church renting out the corner of it's parking lot for a cell tower.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:47 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 4:03 AM Nuggin has not replied
 Message 65 by Chiroptera, posted 08-27-2005 11:53 AM Nuggin has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 52 of 160 (237643)
08-27-2005 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by Nuggin
08-27-2005 3:53 AM


Re: Caution about internet information
I think you would have to assess to what degree the business-side here profited. For instance, if PR is not making any money from the ministry, the non-profit, but is pouring money into the non-profit, then I don't think it's shady.
I don't get the impression from these reports that PR is making money off Operation Blessings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Nuggin, posted 08-27-2005 3:53 AM Nuggin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 08-27-2005 8:33 AM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 53 of 160 (237646)
08-27-2005 4:40 AM


OK, I'm done for awhile on this...
Doing the critic's homework for them. Apparently PR and CBN do use ministry seed-money as venture capital for new businesses, but with the idea of using the businesses to pay for the ministry.
I don't see this as bad, although some are very critical of it. Consider thought the following facts from an article which is critical of the whole thing.
Robertson established a 24-hour channel that in 1992 went public as International Family Entertainment (IFE). In September 1997, Rupert Murdoch's News Corporation and Haim Saban (the creator of the "Mighty Morphin Power Rangers") acquired IFE from Robertson for a reported $1.9 billion. (According to Roth, Robertson took home $400 million, with the rest going to shareholders: "Of that," writes Roth, Robertson "received $19 million, Regent $148 million, CBN $136 million, and the Robertson Charitable Remainder Trust a trust that pays out to CBN in 2010, or at the death of either Robertson or his wife, Dede, whichever comes later $109 million.) The original Robertson/Murdoch deal called for him to continue his 700 Club perhaps in perpetuity. Several of Fox's assets, including Fox Family Channel-owner Fox Family Worldwide, were later sold to the Walt Disney Co. for between $3 and $5 billion. To this day, Robertson's 700 Club remains a fixture on the Disney owned channel.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=13521
So he used ministry money to start the Family Channel. It became so successful the IRS insisted it not be owned by a non-profit, and PR bought the channel (250 million mentioned on other sites). Then, they took it public, and PR took home 400 million.
What did he do with his 400 million?
Regent, the university he founded, got $148 million
CBN got $136 million
$109 million went to a trust that pays out to CBN in 2010 or earlier
And he and his son personally seem to have taken home $19 million out of the $400 million they made
Oh, and he insured for the life of the channel with Fox and now Disney and whoever else buys it that CBN will be aired twice a day in perpuity.
What's wrong with that?
He used ministry money to start a business which had to be sold. He got investors and bought it for 250 million, according to another site, and then they went public, and it sold for 1.9 billion with PR and his son making 400 million.
Rather than pocket that money, they poured over 95% of it back into the ministry, school, etc,....and kept 5% for themselves.
That picture is a far cry from what some are saying about the man.

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by crashfrog, posted 08-27-2005 8:37 AM randman has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 160 (237650)
08-27-2005 5:16 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by crashfrog
08-27-2005 12:18 AM


Not sure where you went to take a break, but you appear to have come back in a lot better shape. Welcome back, and good job.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 08-27-2005 12:18 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 55 of 160 (237666)
08-27-2005 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
08-27-2005 2:06 AM


I haven't agreed with your reaction to Faith's posts because all she is saying is that everyone should have their day in court
Well, I certainly agree that he should have his day in court.
But a $35,000 donation to Virginia's AG seems to have ensured that won't happen. Maybe I'm being hypersensitive but that rubs me the wrong way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 08-27-2005 2:06 AM GDR has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 56 of 160 (237667)
08-27-2005 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by randman
08-27-2005 2:06 AM


Re: the wiki article seems bogus
Looks to me like someone hastily wrote an attack piece against the man.
I don't see in what sense that paragraph is an attack. He is the host of the 700 Club, he does hold conservative views, he rejects the doctrine of the separation of church and state, he did call for the assassination of Hugo Chavez, and he has condemned groups he believes are "sinful."
If you believe that a factual description of the man is an "atack piece", it's not clear on what basis we'll be able to move forward in a discussion. Nonetheless I'll attempt to address your posts to the best of my ability and avaliable time.
Plus, he has never advocated joining church and state
I'm not sure how you would come to that conclusion. He's repeatedly rejected the idea that the church should be separate from the state, for instance in this statement:
quote:
There is no such thing as separation of church and state in the Constitution. It is a lie of the Left and we are not going to take it anymore.
-- Pat Robertson, address to his American Center for Law and Justice
or this one:
quote:
The Constitution of the United States, for instance, is a marvelous document for self-government by the Christian people. But the minute you turn the document into the hands of non-Christian people and atheistic people they can use it to destroy the very foundation of our society. And that's what's been happening.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program
or this:
quote:
Individual Christians are the only ones really -- and Jewish people, those who trust God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob -- are the only ones that are qualified to have the reign, because hopefully, they will be governed by God and submit to Him.
-- Pat Robertson, The 700 Club television program
I'm not certain where you're getting your information but the man does, indeed, believe that religion - excuse me, his religion - and politics should be inextricable.
Crash, did you write this yourself?
The Wiki article? No. The OP? Yes, except where I have quoted sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 2:06 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:32 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 57 of 160 (237668)
08-27-2005 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by randman
08-27-2005 2:35 AM


Re: crash, you've got issues
He has gotten involved in a lot of business ventures and gotten rich.
I don't recall faulting him on that basis. He's rich. More power to him. I have absolutely no problem with that.
But I have detailed instances where he has misused his wealth, or misused charitable donations for uncharitable purposes. Where he has committed illegal acts but been spared prosecution because of "donations" to government officials.
You seem to think Pat Robertson is a giant among evangelicals. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's not the case.
You seem to forget that I was an evangelical for many, many years. While I can only speak for the community I was a part of, Pat Robertson was indeed spoken of with respect throughout our church, and in periodicals ranging from the faxed Pastor's Weekly Briefing to Focus on the Family to Citizen, all national evangelical publications.
Rand he's not some fringe lunatic. He's a national figure in religious politics. He ran for president and actually beat Bush Sr. in one state. He's met with and advised the current president on many occasions. Did I assert that he speaks for all evangelicals? No, of course I did not. But he's a very vocal, very public, and unexplainably, a very well-respected figure in evangelical circles.
I'd say I'd stop giving to CBN except I don't give already.
So write a letter to your cable provider and tell them you don't want to support that channel. Won't do any good, for sure, but shouldn't you at least attempt to put your money where your mouth is?
As far as allegations of fraud, the state investigated and dropped it.
One state agency recommended prosecution. The AG was the one who declined to prosecute, and I've already substantiated his conflict of interest in the matter. A dropped investigation in this case is meaningless.
Basically, without an accountant and a more exact investigatio, we can't say whether the law was broken.
I'm sorry but we can say that. That was the conclusion of the Virginia Office of Consumer Affairs - laws were broken. Again, the Attorney General declined to prosecute but his interests were obviously conflicted.
But frankly, I don't care too much. It's not my job to go after Pat Robertson and make him pure.
If you're not interested in defending the man, you have a very curious way of demonstrating that.
Nonetheless I appreciate your contribution to the thread. I hope you had a good time with your family.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 2:35 AM randman has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 58 of 160 (237669)
08-27-2005 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by randman
08-27-2005 3:09 AM


Re: how about this site crash?
You know, I never heard Bush deny he was a pedophile, child killer and drug runner. I guess he's guilty then by your logic?
Bush is not the topic of this thread. Please try to stay on topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:09 AM randman has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 59 of 160 (237671)
08-27-2005 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
08-27-2005 3:20 AM


Re: So do it!
So the campaign donations were given prior to any official investigation. Crash was therefore wrong to call it a bribe, as I suspected.
Why? You don't believe that you can bribe someone in advance?
Regardless of the timeline, recieving that kind of donation places the AG in a conflict of interest and he should have appointed an independant prosecutor.
Robertson's spokesman claims he paid for the use of the planes.
Regardless, the Virginia Office of Consumer Affairs concluded that there was enough evidence of lawbreaking that they recommended prosecution. Without being able to verify that claim directly we're in a position where we have to take their word on the matter.
Moreover, the spokesman asserts that Operation Blessing was refunded, but the planes weren't purchased with their money. Rather, they were purchased by the donations of OB's supporters for the express purpose of humanitarian aid to Rwanda.
Were they ever used for that purpose? If not was the money refunded to the donators?
If you give money to a charity for a purpose, and they don't make even a good-faith effort to apply that money to that purpose, it doesn't matter if they just keep the money or spend it on another company's business venture - they've done something unethical, don't you agree?
You've made a good attempt but none of this information appears to absolve Operation Blessing. They never did deliver the aid they promised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 3:20 AM randman has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 60 of 160 (237672)
08-27-2005 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by randman
08-27-2005 4:03 AM


Re: Caution about internet information
For instance, if PR is not making any money from the ministry, the non-profit, but is pouring money into the non-profit, then I don't think it's shady.
The business that ran the mine is a different organization than the ministry - the African Development Corporation, for which I presume Robertson is a significant shareholder.
Operation Blessing bought and operated the planes to the benefit of ADC. Is he profiting from the ministry? You tell me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by randman, posted 08-27-2005 4:03 AM randman has not replied

  
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