Teaching the Truth in Schools

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Originally posted by manubeckm7:
I completely agree that this is corruption; it isn't right to force these views upon growing minds.

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And which views are those - the minority views of a bunch of scientifically illiterate Protestant fundamentalists or those of the thousands of scientists from all cultures and all countries who have done the basic research necessary to allow us to begin to understand the underlying principles of nature? Hmm, tough call...

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If you were to present Charles Darwin with the discoveries we have made involving the increased complexity of his original theory, he would even realize his mistake.

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Although this is pure speculation: given what I've read about Darwin the man, I'd say he'd be utterly delighted to see how many of his ideas have not only withstood the test of time, but contributed substantially to our understanding of life both past and present.

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The man was having a spiritual crisis at the time. Some of his ideas were right, I will admit, but he was really grasping for some new concepts to help himself out. He's not the one who came out and said that we all evolved from monkeys. He's just a poster boy for evolutionists.

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True, Darwin never said we evolved from monkeys. Neither has any other evolutionary biologist since Darwin. Curiously, the only people I've ever heard say this are those self-same scientifically illiterate fundamentalists. Wonder why?

please excuse this interuption, is it possible we have all missed the proverbial ark here? i prefer to belive in a higher power.that power wants me to be educated, wants me to be exposed,wants me to learn all i can of everything i can,and then make my choice. a true higher power wants servants that serve thru choice only. not for fear of the wrath.

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Originally posted by Quetzal:True, Darwin never said we evolved from monkeys. Neither has any other evolutionary biologist since Darwin. Curiously, the only people I've ever heard say this are those self-same scientifically illiterate fundamentalists. Wonder why?

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--OWMs (old-world monkeys) (...is what the Evo indeed states) makes a monkey out of all of us, no? Might as well tell my kid he's a worthless monkey-boy, but that he didn't evolve from monkeys.Oh Q! Why can't we keep evolution out of grade school in the same manner that it is kept out of medical school? We doctors don't use it because its not expedient for anything. Moreover, it makes us look like idiots when we talk it in front of our patients: e.g., "Mrs. Jones, the arch of your foot is collapsing because Lucy-the ape-man's foot developed a bunion." (etc.).At a local (public) community college in NC, we the students (in order to form a more perfect class) were able to oust out the ToE from our biology classes (with instructor approval) in order to learn true and relevent biological science. Surely, we can do the same at the grade school level, via pressure by a minority of concerned parents. The paradigm has already been ousted from many of Alabama's public schools via such pressure.Have we broken the federal law at the state level, Q? Our schools have enough competition-type problems: teaching tyranical evolutionary schemes is easily thwarted (in Alabama), by even just one or 2 concerned spokesman like myself. Why? Because, the ToE is so ridiculed by us fundies, simpletons, drunks, widows, negroes, rednecks, and sincere folk, etc., that any e-word usually becomes quickly extradited to Yankee/Babylonian domains up north.Sorry, we just ain't got time for it, Q.[This message has been edited by Philip, 12-31-2002]

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Originally posted by Philip:

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Originally posted by Quetzal:True, Darwin never said we evolved from monkeys. Neither has any other evolutionary biologist since Darwin. Curiously, the only people I've ever heard say this are those self-same scientifically illiterate fundamentalists. Wonder why?

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--OWMs (old-world monkeys) (...is what the Evo indeed states) makes a monkey out of all of us, no? Might as well tell my kid he's a worthless monkey-boy, but that he didn't evolve from monkeys.

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And that we were created from a handful of dust is more dignified how? The spiritual truth of Genesis 2 is that we are indeed made of the same stuff of the earth as every other created thing. And you are still wrong; the exact evolutionary relationship between our line and that of the OWM is extremely obscure. This is not surprising, given that arboreal animals are not ideal candidates for fossilisation.

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Oh Q! Why can't we keep evolution out of grade school in the same manner that it is kept out of medical school? We doctors don't use it because its not expedient for anything.

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Nor is English Literature. You don't do Shakespeare in med school either. Should this be an argument for not doing it at school?

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Moreover, it makes us look like idiots when we talk it in front of our patients: e.g., "Mrs. Jones, the arch of your foot is collapsing because Lucy-the ape-man's foot developed a bunion." (etc.).

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It would if you spoke rubbish like that. On the other hand, if you pointed out that back pain is a widespread problem partially because the vertebral column originally evolved as a horizontal support, and does not function quite so well vertically, you would be making sense.

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At a local (public) community college in NC, we the students (in order to form a more perfect class) were able to oust out the ToE from our biology classes (with instructor approval) in order to learn true and relevent biological science.

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And choosing ignorance of a major part of modern biology makes the class more perfect how?

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Surely, we can do the same at the grade school level, via pressure by a minority of concerned parents. The paradigm has already been ousted from many of Alabama's public schools via such pressure.

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And this is a great disservice to the students in those schools. Of course, it allows you lot to ensure the next generation is as ignorant of science as you have chosen to be.

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Have we broken the federal law at the state level, Q? Our schools have enough competition-type problems: teaching tyranical evolutionary schemes is easily thwarted (in Alabama), by even just one or 2 concerned spokesman like myself. Why? Because, the ToE is so ridiculed by us fundies, simpletons, drunks, widows, negroes, rednecks, and sincere folk, etc., that any e-word usually becomes quickly extradited to Yankee/Babylonian domains up north.

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Ridicule is easy, and generally resorted to when reason fails. How about actually proposing a scientific alternative hypothesis, testing it, submitting it for peer review and replacing the reigning theory? You'd probably win a Nobel Prize for that.

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Sorry, we just ain't got time for it, Q.

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[This message has been edited by Philip, 12-31-2002]

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And therefore you wish to deny your children the right to learn about it. Fie on you!

Over here in Holland, we don't really have problems with evolution. most people here are agnostic or just don't care. But the difference between evolution and creationism is that for evolution, we started from scratch and built up a theory based on what we can see and touch. such 'foundationalism' is not present in the creationist theory which prefers an inductive approach by attempting to match the ideas conveyed in ancient documents with the real world. Evolution is therefore the higher form of knowledge since it presupposes only man's ability to observe and interpret his environment.The resistance to the teaching of evolution in schools is really just a lingering protest from a dying religion

Oh another prophet of doom. Seems to be quite a few of you.I personally could care less if they teah evolution in schools. Just don't do it till a little further into their education. Also, the tenative nature of science should be more clearly portrayed.I'd like to see more time put into the social/political history of the human race than anything else. It would be nice if the human race would stop making the same mistakes over and over again.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

i think creationism should be taught in school when and only when it is supported by data supporting it, rather than data against evolution.------------------
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Oh, and don't quote anything from primitive books or people who lived before 0 AD

--Percy

When was 0 AD ?

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Do you accept the teaching of the evolutionary theory in schools?

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You can teach it in schools, so long as you teach that its a hypothesis instead of a fact.
Which, of course, it is not, and thats just lying to young minds and corrupting them. Making them see one way and not the other. If you let yourself see to just whats in front of you, you could get attacked from behind. Its just not right.

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Based upon the above concern we should teach children nothing
about religion (any religion).Since little or no aspect of any religion can be outright
proven to the satisfaction of everyone then it should not
be used to corrupt young minds.

Well, i think that the teaching of religion is ok, as long as it's not a 'revival campaign'. It should be an optional subject that describes a variety of religions in a matter of fact fashion like history or geography. It should definitely not come under science or philosophy, rather it should be classed among the humanities, describing the different aspects of religions, similarities and differences between various religions and their roles and origins in history. Singing prayer hymns, engaging in rituals, etc, should not be the focus although the rituals of various religions should be studied.

In the UK we call that 'religious studies' and that's
exactly what is taught.The point I was making really was that objection to the
teaching of evolution on the grounds that it is brainwashing
the young with unsupportable claims leads to the need
for a complete abandonment of religious instruction.An unfortunate, but typical example of 'creationist' double
standards.

"Man evolved from monkeys" - that old tired straw man that creationists use to raise emotional hackles of people who haven't otherwise gotten evolved in the debate. Nowhere in evolutionary theory is it advanced that man evolved from monkeys. Both simians and hominids arose by descent with modification from a common ancestor.Here's why we cannot teach creationism as an "alternative" in biology classes - apart from the fact that biology is a science and creationism is a spiritual belief, and therefore not appropriate in a science class, if we teach an "alternative" which one do we teach? The judeo-christian version? I don't know about you, but I went to a large public high school and the majority of the people in the top 5% of the graduating class were east asians - many of them hindus. It would be a violation of their civil rights to subject them to the christian belief and not discuss hindu creation story. Do we really have time to teach all of the religions of the world in two semesters, and give our students a decent introduction to biological science? No. This is the problem. Fundamentalists are biggoted. They don't want ALL beliefs taught in biology classes, just THEIR beliefs. You can believe what you want, keep yourself in the dark (Plato's allegory of the cave comes to mind) but don't push your biggoted ignorance on my children.Really, it makes no difference that you fundamentalists vainly fight to push our education system back into the Dark Ages. The facts are inexorable. There is a story of Gallileo, who was called before the church, and under pain of death, told to recant his statement that the earth revolved around the sun. He did so, but then looked at the ground under his feet and muttered, "yet it still moves."

Not everyone who studies biology does so to become a physician. I studied it to become a developmental biologist. For my line of work, the understanding of evolution is extremely important, and I put it to the use of understanding how birth defects come about. It's a good thing I was exposed to it young so I would know to study it later, because I was never required to take a class that focused on evolutionary biology, but I did choose it.Oh, well, if the state of Alabama, the paragon of quality public education, has omitted evolution from public schools, then it must be a good idea. Alabama? ALABAMA?!?!? How could you have advanced that cultural backwater (stagnant pond, really) as an example with a straight face?