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Author Topic:   Can the Christian God exist without the Bible?
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
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(1)
Message 4 of 106 (245303)
09-20-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
09-20-2005 3:27 PM


for one. the god of the bible is one interpretation of a certain entity which may or may not exist.
first, let's assume existence. so. maybe the biblical writers had a right or wrong interpretation of an existing entity.
now. suppose they had a right interpretation of this entity.
sure. the god can exist as they defined him immaterial of the accuracy or usefulness of the book.
perhaps they made him up, but sure he can exist without them.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 21 of 106 (245505)
09-21-2005 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Ben!
09-20-2005 6:48 PM


Re: From a human's perspective
quote:
Originally posted by Ben:
When approaching PB's question as a simple question of "absolute" existence, I think jar and brennakimi are right on. Since I believe humans have no access to this type of knowledge of the absolute, however, I think the question, and the answer, are meaningless. Further, looking at PB's OP, he says
The absolute Creator Who is knowable
So I want to ask the question again, but from the angle of what is knowable; i.e. from the angle of the human perspective.
Revised question: Can the Christian God be known, in all meanings of the word (i.e. experience in 'meeting' God, in knowing all about God, in knowing what God expects of you, etc), without the Bible?

well. read through genesis a bit. much of it suggewsts a very physically real god who walks and talks with humans in a very physical and real way. this is a very different interpretation than the rest of the book (and christian thought) which calls god a spirit and treats him as an all-knowing but distant character. if this god is really just kind of a regular but somehow special dude walking around like genesis suggests then sure we can experience him. but the question would then be how do you know when you've had coffee with the god of the universe.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 25 of 106 (245543)
09-21-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
09-21-2005 3:37 PM


Re: From a human's perspective
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:

And of course the idea of a specifically "Christian" God is misleading too. God is God. The Bible is simply His revelation of Himself to humanity.

in your mind. in my mind, the bible is a collection of the writings of people who sat and thought about god. perhaps god spoke to them, but the specification exists to define your god as compared to the jewish god (which is NOT the same thing) or any of the other gods. this is a discussion and you must define your terms. if you simply say 'god' people will read it differently.

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 Message 22 by Faith, posted 09-21-2005 3:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 09-21-2005 5:10 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 29 of 106 (245622)
09-22-2005 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
09-21-2005 5:10 PM


Re: From a human's perspective
quote:
Originally posted by Faith:

But you have to make that up to believe that. There is nothing in the Bible itself that suggests that's how it was written. It presents itself as the record of GOD's actions upon mankind. God initiated everything in the Bible, according to the Bible, so you have to disagree with the Bible to say people originated it.

i don't have to make it up. the bible doesn't present itself as a singular entity. the verses i'm sure you are referring are those that say that god's words are eternal and infallible. they do not use the words 'the holy bible'. the church history itself defines the canon as being determined at a conference. (i can't remember the name but ask anyone on the board or even your pastor.) a conference held at some ancient resort no doubt (much like the conference over the final solution heh.) where a bunch of old roman guys sat around and decided which books to keep in the bible and which to remove. have you ever heard of the apocrypha? did you know that the torah has the books in a different order and some books are either numbered differently or have more text? did you know that some sects of christianity have additional books in their bibles? did you know that these are considered mainstream sects and not cults?
the bible presents itself as a record of the interaction of a people (or two if you separate ancient christians from jews) with their god. nothing more, nothing less. perhaps god inwspired it. but did he sit down and write it himself or dictate it? no way. tell me something. do you think genesis was written by moses? do you think it was written before kings?
Gen 36:31 And these [are] the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel.
that says it wasn't. that simple statement says that there had to have been at least one king in israel before genesis was written. most mainstream bible scholars actually place the writting during the captivity. and that would make sense. write down a fanciful and powerful history for a people in exile that tells them that they will overcome.
proverbs and psalms by their very construction tell us that they were multiple separate books: proverbs because of what it is, a collection of sayings considered wise all squished together with even some backed up to others that directly contradict them; and psalms because of the volume titles and the different creditted authors.
also. i can't remember which (i took a class a couple semesters ago about this stuff and i've since had a math class and that takes precedent in my brain) but kings or chronicals or judges has whole chapters precisely copied from one of the others. and judges or kings (ask arachnophilia i'm getting fuzzy) suggests that deuteronomy (copy of the law) is a forgery that was conveniently discovered
right before one of the rulers decided to start 'purifying' the religious institutions.
there's plenty of evidence that it isn't a singular entity. frankly, i think that makes it a better source. but then the rampant racism and hatred and name-calling in the book makes me want to vomit from the political prowess of it (and i'm a polisci master's student). it's really one of the most politically charged books i've EVER read. read genesis then pick up the ny times. you'd never know whidh was which but for the mention of cds (unless you believe that one guy....)
i do not have to disagree with the bible... just with jim bakker. and what's so wrong with disagreeing with the bible? if my kid smarts off at me, i might smack him, but i'm not gonna let GW stone him.
quote:

You will have to explain how there could be any confusion from using the term "God" as I don't see any. It is the English term for the one and only Creator of all things. Anybody who believes in such a Being, Christian or not -- or even anybody who has heard of the idea though doesn't believe in such a Being -- should have no problem understanding it. But if you do, please explain your confusion.

just because you think there is only one god does not mean that there is only one god in the realm of philosophical discussion. since people tend to capitalize the name of the god they prefer, someone else might think you are talking about Allah instead of Elohim. or worse... think you are talking of El instead of El-shaddai. oh wait...
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 09-22-2005 12:06 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 09-21-2005 5:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 09-22-2005 12:18 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 31 of 106 (245627)
09-22-2005 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
09-22-2005 12:18 AM


Re: From a human's perspective
ok now you're confusing me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 09-22-2005 12:18 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 09-22-2005 12:32 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


(1)
Message 33 of 106 (245632)
09-22-2005 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
09-22-2005 12:32 AM


Re: From a human's perspective
well that's a rather novel thing for a christian to say...
you may yet show promise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 09-22-2005 12:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 09-28-2005 11:19 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 41 of 106 (246971)
09-28-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
09-28-2005 11:59 AM


Re: God, if GOD exists...
if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it...

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Replies to this message:
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