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Author Topic:   The Great Debate
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 37 of 102 (240306)
09-03-2005 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by arachnophilia
07-31-2005 1:16 AM


Finer Details
Ok, just had some extra time to clarify a few things.
arachnophilia writes:
yet light and dark forms one day. skipping down a bit.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
In Hebrew day and night comprise of one [echad] day.
...
You seem to be mixing up the concept of measuring "time" with the concept of mixing up "value".
The concept of "day" and "night" comprise one 24 hour day -- but "light" and "dark" do not comprise one of anything in the Scriptures.
Furthermore, a 24 hour day in certain parts of the world can and do often comprise entirely of daylight or else entirely of evening -- such as in the extreme poles of the earth. A 24 hour day can be solely one or the other -- and neither is required to measure the 24 hour time frame.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
However, nowhere do the Scriptures actually state that good and evil are one [echad]. Likewise, nowhere does the Hebrew Scriptures actually state that light and darkness are actually one [echad] -- except in relation to the physical events of day and night. Not once are these "pairs" of good and evil described in such a fashion as a unified one with the word "echad".
I requoted this part above because I wasn't sure if you actually understood what I was saying.
arachnophilia writes:
nowing good and evil seems to form one GOD, or person of god-like qualities. and now apparently in man. good and evil are united in the tree, and in god, and now apparently in man. before this point -- the division of morality so to speak, man seemed to be unaware of either in specific. thus he was easily duped by the serpent and/or eve, who also probably did not know better.
Alright, for the sake of this discussion, let's go with this logic then. If man if created in the image of God, and man is naive to evil, does this also mean that God is naive to evil?
God, for example, is apparently looking for Adam and Eve after they partake in the tree. Certainly, if God indeed knows all things, he shouldn't have been surprised by this, correct?
God, likewise, is apparently surprised by Adams' loneliness. Again, certainly, if God indeed knows all things, he shouldn't have been surprised by this, correct?
Some would say that God was testing them, giving them the chance to confess so to speak. Others would say that God indeed didn't "know evil" until he discovered it.
Which view would you take -- or is there another concept you would like to interject here?
For the record, the Scriptures do sometimes make statments which seem to indicate that God can possibly be caught off gaurd.
For example, Jeremiah speaks as follows:
NIV writes:
Why are you like a man taken by surprise,
like a warrior powerless to save?
You are among us, O LORD,
and we bear your name;
do not forsake us!
Admittedly, I suspect that this passsage is more used in a metephorical sense. However, bearing in mind the passages in the earliest chapters of the Genesis account, the Scriptures do seem to indicate that God can indeed be caught off gaurd.
If God indeed cannot look upon sin (cf. is naive to evil), then many parts of the Scriptures would make sense.
arachnophilia writes:
similarly, light needed darkness to define itself. oh wait, that's backwards, sorry. we're generally agreed, i think, that the theme of creation is order from chaos, nevermind the ex-nihilo stuff. we've talked before about the leviathan-lothan connection, and the role of the deep as chaos. i'd like to suggest that the natural state of things is evil. the chaos is evil. and leviathan is evil (his image is used to depict the devil in revelation.)
this is, i should point out, totally consistent with your point. if god, being the source of "good" went away, the universe would by nature revert to "evil," would it not? so evil then can be expressed as an abscence of god -- which is your point exactly if i'm correct. and that's fine. i agree with that. it's not what this verse in isaiah is saying, but that's an acceptable view of things. now, this is of course begging a question:
if evil is a lack of god's presence -- and the universe is naturally evil -- why?
Who said the universe is naturally evil?
I think the Scriptures indicate over and over again that the creation, while in pain, is still fundamentally good - just as God ordained it.
Again, you seem to be invoking a dualism that, in my opinion, the Scriptures do not actually argue for.
arachnophilia writes:
why can't everyone win the superbowl?
They can. If all teams join together and play on the same team, there will be no more opposing teams to be rivals against. In this instance everyone wins and nobody loses.
Observe the following passage of Scripture...
NIV writes:
Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
"Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?"
I certainly think that there were minor strains of Jewish thought which sought to exalt their own Jewish identity above the Lord they worshipped -- but I'm fairly sure that God's ultimate purpose went way above the "primitive" ideas of "good guys" and "bad guys".
arachnophilia writes:
creation CANNOT be thoroughly good.
Yes, but creation can be like a mirror which reflects God's goodness. In all honestly, creation appears to be basically neutral, altough it leans in its Creators direction.
arachnophilia writes:
otherwise it would be like god. and that's a big problem with that logic.
Why?
arachnophilia writes:
it contradicts itself.
I don't think it does.
arachnophilia writes:
evidently, creation is not currently thoroughly good, either. so what happened, exactly? where did the bad come from? from god's absence? if god's creation turns evil when he takes a coffee break, it's not too thoroughly good is it?
Sure it is. Like a mirror it can reflect it's creators goodness -- which is what God designed it for -- because even creation gives praise to God.
It seems to me that it's when something occults the image of God that the reflection of God becomes distorted -- much like viewing the world through a darknened glass.
arachnophilia writes:
logic does not side with maimonides.
Sure it does.
Edit: corrected spelling, added bold for emphasis, clarified various points by adding Scriptural references where appropriate.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-03-2005 12:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2005 1:16 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2005 3:29 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 38 of 102 (248470)
10-03-2005 10:00 AM


Computer's Back
Ok, mom decided she didn't want the computer anymore, so she decided to give it back to me. I can now respond faster again.
Everything ok there arachnophilia?

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by arachnophilia, posted 10-03-2005 5:20 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 39 of 102 (248520)
10-03-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by arachnophilia
07-31-2005 1:16 AM


Re: Hebrew Parallelisms Follow-Up
arachnophilia writes:
can it wait a little?
No problem. There's no more time restrictions for our debate here.
arachnophilia writes:
if i get an opportunity, i'll find my old prof on campus and ask him if he can refer me to some material.
Good. I'd like to hear what your prof has to say on the matter.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-03-2005 12:04 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by arachnophilia, posted 07-31-2005 1:16 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 43 of 102 (250360)
10-09-2005 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by arachnophilia
10-09-2005 2:50 AM


Re: bump
Hmmm...your responses didn't show up as a "YES" in the "Replies Await" box of index page for some reason?
Sorry for the delay.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I have demonstrated from Scripture my own views many times in this thread. We do disagree in some areas. However, we have agreed on a number of key points too.
arachnophilia writes:
ok, let me just run over those, as i've been a bit out of it lately, busy with school and whatnot.
we agree that:
1. god does good and evil, speaks good and evil.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Not necessarilly.
I still think God does only good. However, I think that he speaks to humans on a level that they can understand. Therefore, if he calls the end results of his actions "evil", it's seems to me more the case that he's simply using a phrase that others will immediately grasp.
I also think that the Israelites believed this too -- since many passages of Scripture overwhemlingly say God is good compared to the minority of passage which do not explicitly state that God is evil but only allude to the end result of his actions causing evil (which can also be translated as painful, etc.)
Even in the case of someone "repenting", like God apparently did with his creating of humanity during the flood, this doesn't necessarilly imply that God sinned. Repentance, in it's most basic sense, simply means to turn 180 degrees from what you were formerly doing. In others words, one can still be left feeling guilt even for doing good if the good that you started eventually becomes corrupt.
Having said this, however, we do agree somewhat on the next point -- which I think brings our thoughts more in line with each other.
2. evil is subjective, and depends on the recipient not god or objective moral standards
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Yes and no.
I think, technically speaking, the subjective value of good and evil is intimately related to the people God is apparently speaking to. As I said above, I think that he speaks to humans on a level that they can understand. In this sense it's a question of language.
However, if you are still suggesting that God can do evil, as I noted above, the Israelites unquestionably believed that God is good. The evil part is what we are still debating.
3. god is in control of all things, including (all) evils
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
There is no question about this one. We agree.
However, I would like to note that, similar to your street analogy used earlier, doing evil is like going down the wrong way of a one-way street.
The Spirit of God which moves all things is still objectively good -- even if the end result of the motion results in what humans would subjectively call evil. Again, as noted above, this is the question of the language employed. In other words, God's objective view of evil become subjective when reduced to a level that humans can misunderstand.
I apologize if these reponses throw us backward in this dialogue at all -- but I just needed to clarify a few things. When I placed the strike though those texts before and asked you to move on, it was partially because we'd both explained our views and neither side seemed to be giving any ground. It was more a matter of expediency than agreement.
In my view, by focussing on what we thought was the original source of evil according to the Scriptures, I thought we could kind of reverse-engineer this debate to flow from source to man and see where God fits in.
Please note: I don't plan on going back to discuss these things. I'm simply planning on continuing with the remainder of your repsonses below in order to see exactly where we do agree.
Whoever chooses to critique our debate can inform us what they thought of our ideas later.
arachnophilia writes:
but as of right now, we do no agree that:
4. god is the original source of evil
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Yes, I understand your position. But ultimately where does evil come from, where is its source according to the Scriptures -- God or man?
arachnophilia writes:
well, this is kind of the debate. and i think we might actually be at the end of it, too. because i think we might agree here too, somewhat. like i said, i don't think the bible presents a view of an objective evil against god, but that it means a more relative kind of evil.
but i'd like to point out that this point is fundamentally moot. if the source is man, and god is responsible for man, then the ultimate origin of evil lies with god, doesn't it? now, i don't mean to somehow conflate man's misdeeds with actions of god, i'm simply saying that if god is omniscient, and knew man would be evil in some respect, yet created us anyways, then god bears some responsibility there.
so maybe a good question is whether or not the god of the bible is omniscient. i don't suspect he is. but anyways -- according to scriptures, the origin does in fact have to be with god. i won't quote genesis 2 and 3 back at you, i know you've read them. but the tree of knowledge of good and evil was placed in the garden of eden by god (not man) and granted man something godly.
so the premise here is that god knows both good and evil, and the first conclusion we must reach is that both good and evil therefor exist at this point. so we have two choices: either there is an objective moral evil that god is not responsible for (say, another god, that god did not create) or evil is merely a condition of creation. we've already ruled out the first option, and the option of man creating evil is not allowed be contraints of the premise. he just hasn't been around long enough.
the only remaining option, the one that evil is just a condition of existance, is entirely consistent with the subjectivity we've been discussing. at least, i think so.
Whoa...what the heck just happened here?
There's a lot of things you noted in here that I haven't actually agreed to. It was almost kind of rambling.
If you're really busy right now arach, take a break and let me know when you've got time to come back and realy focus on this debate. I'd rather talk with a very focussed arachnophilia, because I think we can learn a lot more from each other then.
Peace in Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2005 2:50 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2005 10:46 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 45 of 102 (252276)
10-16-2005 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by arachnophilia
10-13-2005 10:46 PM


Re: bump
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I still think God does only good. However, I think that he speaks to humans on a level that they can understand. Therefore, if he calls the end results of his actions "evil", it's seems to me more the case that he's simply using a phrase that others will immediately grasp.
arachnophilia writes:
i think it's the other way around. it's people ascribing human qualities to god.
Ok, but you don't think this is what the Israelites themselves believed, do you?
Although we are free to give our own personal thoughts on the matter, we are still ultimately trying to resolve what the ancient Israelites believed about their own Scriptures, correct?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Even in the case of someone "repenting", like God apparently did with his creating of humanity during the flood, this doesn't necessarilly imply that God sinned. Repentance, in it's most basic sense, simply means to turn 180 degrees from what you were formerly doing. In others words, one can still be left feeling guilt even for doing good if the good that you started eventually becomes corrupt.
arachnophilia writes:
yes, and no. to say that god sinned is a little more than to say god made a mistake (which god himself will say he did, ala the passage you refered to).
Alright, God, in the case of the flood, apparently repents that he had ever made man. Yet, later on, several Scriptural verses also teach that God cannot repent. However, again, in I Samuel 15, God repents that he had made Saul king of Israel (in verses 11, 35 for example) and yet he also declares that he is not a man that he should repent (verse 29 for example).
Do you believe the Israelites beleived these things were contradictions in their own Scriptures, or do you believe the Israelites believed these statements were God's way of trying to force the Israelites to see subtle differences in the meanings of a word?
Or stating it differently, if you're studying Hebrew, could you take a look at the word for "repent" and see if it is used in more than one way? Are there any cases where the word repent is used in conjunction with someone performing what the Scriptures consider a "good action"?
I ask because I'm not sure if I have the proper resources to properly identify this at this time.
More specifically, for example, consider the case of a parent giving a child a toy. The toy is good. It is designed to give joy to the child. However, by some tragic mishap, the child ends up choking on the toy.
We'll pretend in this case that the child was rescued.
However, in real-life these kinds of accidents do unfortunately happen. If, in this hypothetical situation, the child perished due to the toy, would the parent be guilty of sinning -- even if their original intention was good?
arachnophilia writes:
saying god sinned is to say that god made some kind of trespass against something or someone. since god is the highest authority, no one has any right to say that god commited a trespass.
But doesn't God have the ability to judge his own actions?
arachnophilia writes:
therefore, god cannot sin, even if he can do things we call evil, and even if he can do things he calls mistakes.
Well, let's take a look at this statement for a minute.
First of all, God is apparently doing something that has a direct effect on humanity, something that he should be able to hold himself accountable for, correct?
Is God not aware of his own actions -- or is he simply above condemning himself?
Mr. Ex nihilo writes:
Yes and no.
I think, technically speaking, the subjective value of good and evil is intimately related to the people God is apparently speaking to. As I said above, I think that he speaks to humans on a level that they can understand. In this sense it's a question of language.
arachnophilia writes:
sure, it probably is. i agree here. but it's this subjectivity that is the basis for the first point (i really should have put them the other way around). since the language is in question, and what we call evil is subjective, it can be said that god does evil and speaks evil.
Ok, scratch what I asked above. I think we're actually agreeing here very well.
arachnophilia writes:
this "evil" may well be good from the eyes of god, or someone who speaks for god:
However, if you are still suggesting that God can do evil, as I noted above, the Israelites unquestionably believed that God is good. The evil part is what we are still debating.
arachnophilia writes:
the idea being that even when god does something someone might consider evil, there is a good purpose behind it.
There is no question about this one. We agree.
However, I would like to note that, similar to your street analogy used earlier, doing evil is like going down the wrong way of a one-way street.
The Spirit of God which moves all things is still objectively good -- even if the end result of the motion results in what humans would subjectively call evil. Again, as noted above, this is the question of the language employed. In other words, God's objective view of evil become subjective when reduced to a level that humans can misunderstand.
arachnophilia writes:
ok, agreed.
wow.
Do you agree that this is what the Israelites believed as well?
arachnophilia writes:
the sum of the argument is that evil existed before man, and god knew good and evil before man did. i think this "knowing good and evil" bit is, as holmes put it, divine judgement -- it's us making those specific subjective quality judgements we've been talking about. it's use choosing what to call good, and what to call evil.
To be honest, I think it's not so much about good and evil. I think it's more probably about shame -- and the laying of blame to others who do not deserve it. It's about figuring out who is responsble for what and what's going to be done in response to each other's actions.
More importantly, although many tend to think of the account of the garden as a story of good vs. evil, I think it's more a story of how a loving God was willing to subject himself to the scrunity and judgements of his own creation. As the late Pope John Paul II said,
Pope John Paul II writes:
"...in a certain sense one could say that confronted with our human freedom, God decided to make Himself 'impotent.' And one could say that God is paying for the great gift bestowed upon a being He created 'in his image, after his likeness' (cf. Gn 1:26). Before this gift, He remains consistent, and places Himself before the judgment of man..."
arachnophilia writes:
the other point is that for the things we call evil, or if some objective evil DOES exist, god has to be responsible for it if he's omniscient.
shall we proceed from one of these two points?
Actually, we can proceed from both if you like. I'd also like to get back to the concept of the "void" which existed prior to God's creation.
Is that ok?
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-17-2005 12:26 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2005 10:46 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 1:37 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 46 of 102 (252306)
10-17-2005 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
07-11-2005 2:42 AM


Finer Details 1
arachnophilia writes:
i'll repeat: a double negative is not a contrast.
Buh?
How did I miss this one before?
Actually, arachnophilia, it most certainly can be used this way.
A double negative occurs when two or more ways to express negation are used in the same sentence. It's the usage of two or more negative words in the same sentence to produce a strong emphasis on the positive or negative meaning in the verb.
In English, for example, we can use two negatives to produce a strong positive meaning.
Example: I will never fail you nor will I ever abandon you.
The standard form of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" also has a corresponding double negative form: "Do not do unto others as you would not have them do unto you" -- which has a different psychological connotation
Whenever the standard form of the Golden Rule is positive, implying a commandment which must or ought to be done, the double negative form is more neutral (merely suggesting a positive action, and commanding only that one refrain from other actions whose results one would not prefer oneself).
In some languages a double negative resolves to a negative, while in others it resolves to a positive. These are strictly grammatical rules and have nothing to do with mathematics. In particular, as stated before, double negatives do not "cancel each other out" -- the usage of two or more negative words in the same sentence produce a strong emphasis on the positive or negative meaning in the verb.
They are used in some languages and considered erroneous in others. Many people criticize dialects employing "double" negatives as "illogical" -- two negatives make a positive in multiplication. But double negatives are really negative agreement (like subject-verb agreement) and are displayed in many languages (including older versions of English).
For example in both French and English we can answer a question negatively:
Who arrived? Nobody.
Qui est arrivé? Personne.
But the standard languages differ on how to form negative statements:
I did not see anybody.
Je n'ai vu personne.
Standard English uses "anybody" instead of "nobody" in negative statements whereas standard French uses "personne" in both places. Notice that the French sentence is equivalent to:
I did not see nobody.
...which is exactly what some dialects of English use, the double negative. So the double negative dialects are exactly like other languages (e.g. standard French) in this respect.
They are not illogical or stupid.
They simply have a rule of negative agreement that standard English does not have. Just as Boston dialects have a rule dropping r that standard American English does not have. Negative agreement is used in many dialects of English -- and in many other languages including Hebrew.
Look. I guess I'm not going to really debate this part about the various forms of parallelsim in the Scriptures. However, I would like you to do something for me:
1) Please be led by the Spirit and print off the pages of this debate...
2) Bring it to your professor...
3) Explain to him/her what I've explained to you...
4) Allow him/her to read our discussion...
5) Then ask him/her who he/she feels is correct on this matter regarding parallelisms.
If he/she agrees with your opinion, then come back and tell me that here. I'll trust you to be honest in relaying whatever your prof has to say about this for the sake of this debate -- and I will not attempt to say that you're lying if indeed your prof agrees with your opinion over my opinion.
But if he/she agrees with my opinion, then you have to do the same -- tell it here.
Is that acceptable to you?
Edit: Sources --
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/023.html
http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Double_negative
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-17-2005 12:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 07-11-2005 2:42 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 3:25 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 47 of 102 (252312)
10-17-2005 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by arachnophilia
07-23-2005 5:02 AM


Finer Details 2
arachnophilia writes:
ah ha! no, actually i'm not! see, i think we're really arguing for the same thing, we just need to make each see that. the point of this debate is that i DON'T think the hebrews thought of evil as something tangible at all! nor even defined in the modern sense.
christianity, as a contrast, seems to have a VERY tangible of what evil is. evil is the devil, doing against what god says, disobedience -- and some outside force that acts on us. rather, to hebrews, evils seems to have been a property that was somewhat arbitrarily thrown around. something could be good and evil at the same time, like knowledge. or, for that matter, god. but that's where i'm going.
Exactly where would a passage like this fit into our debate here?
NIV writes:
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it.
edit: ie., sin seems to be personified with animated almost human qualities.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-17-2005 12:41 AM
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-18-2005 01:55 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by arachnophilia, posted 07-23-2005 5:02 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 48 of 102 (252313)
10-17-2005 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by arachnophilia
10-09-2005 2:50 AM


Re: bump
arachnophilia writes:
here's a question though. does a subjective view of evil become objective because the view is that of god's?
Bingo! This is what I think the Israelite's perceived God like.
The Spirit of God which moves all things is still objectively good -- even if the end result of the motion results in what humans would subjectively call evil. Again, as noted above, this is the question of the language employed. In other words, God's objective view of evil become subjective when reduced to a level that humans can misunderstand.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-18-2005 01:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by arachnophilia, posted 10-09-2005 2:50 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 3:31 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 49 of 102 (252317)
10-17-2005 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
07-18-2005 3:04 AM


Finer Details 3
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
It is interesting to note that this particular darkness could be "felt".
arachnophilia writes:
now THAT sounds like an idiom to me. would you agree?
I'm honestly not sure on this one. This is more my curiousity than anything, but there have been accounts of clouds and banks of fog that had weird properties and behavior.
For example, in 1758, a fog of "strange and extraordinary appearance" was witnessed by several Colonials in Connecticut. They said it arrived in thick bodies that would "break" when it struck buildings. Odder still, it emitted such heat that they found it difficult to breathe near it.
One account goes like this...
Annual Register, 1:90-91, 1758 writes:
...about sun-rise, at this place was a fog of so strange and extraordinary appearance, that it filled us all with amazement. It came in great bodies, like thick clouds down to the earth, and in its way, striking against the houses, would break and fall down the sides in great bodies, rolling over and over. It resembled the thick steam rising from boiling wort [a plant used in making soap], and was attended with such heat that we could hardly breathe. When first I saw it I really thought my house was on fire, and the last day come, One of our neighbors was then at Sutton, 100 miles to the eastward, and reports it was much the same there.
Exactly what was happening here, I have no idea. But this little story always reminded me of the darkness in Egypt for some reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 07-18-2005 3:04 AM arachnophilia has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 53 of 102 (252590)
10-18-2005 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by arachnophilia
10-17-2005 1:37 PM


Re: bump
arachnophilia writes:
i think it's the other way around. it's people ascribing human qualities to god.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Ok, but you don't think this is what the Israelites themselves believed, do you?
arachnophilia writes:
no, but i think it's what they DID. or, rather, some of them did. different books seem to represent different philosophies about god, his personality, and how well he relates to human beings. the god of genesis is very human, but the god of exodus is so foreign that just the sight of him kills.
One might note that prior to Adam and Eve partaking in the tree, they could see God in very tangible human forms. However, after that time, God appears with human qualities for only the most brief and stupendous of accasions.
Perhaps something changed after Adam and Eve knew good and evil like the unique one did. The text prior to the flood does seem to indicate that God's spirit in humanity was winding down so to speak.
Although we are free to give our own personal thoughts on the matter, we are still ultimately trying to resolve what the ancient Israelites believed about their own Scriptures, correct?
arachnophilia writes:
well, we have to be able to step back for a second an analyze it in context. we don't have to totally look at it through their eyes, so that we fail to see what role this plays in their society. although, if we really wanted to get into it, i'm sure it could probably be argued that many DID believe that genesis humanized god. but this would take a little more knowledge of the talmud than i have, and it's not really the point of this debate.
Ok, we'll drop this for now.
Alright, God, in the case of the flood, apparently repents that he had ever made man. Yet, later on, several Scriptural verses also teach that God cannot repent. However, again, in I Samuel 15, God repents that he had made Saul king of Israel (in verses 11, 35 for example) and yet he also declares that he is not a man that he should repent (verse 29 for example).
Do you believe the Israelites beleived these things were contradictions in their own Scriptures, or do you believe the Israelites believed these statements were God's way of trying to force the Israelites to see subtle differences in the meanings of a word?
arachnophilia writes:
no, i think this goes back to the authority question we've been dealing with here. who does god have to repent TO?
I'm not sure but he apparently does repent, so it is an interesting question as to who he has to repent to, if anyone.
arachnophilia writes:
us? can we demand that god say he's sorry for something we percieve as evil? no. but god is apparently capable of regret.
Well, we do agree that God can regret his own actions. The Hebrew Scriptures are clear on this.
Or stating it differently, if you're studying Hebrew, could you take a look at the word for "repent" and see if it is used in more than one way? Are there any cases where the word repent is used in conjunction with someone performing what the Scriptures consider a "good action"?
I ask because I'm not sure if I have the proper resources to properly identify this at this time.
arachnophilia writes:
i'm not sure i do, either.
More specifically, for example, consider the case of a parent giving a child a toy. The toy is good. It is designed to give joy to the child. However, by some tragic mishap, the child ends up choking on the toy.
We'll pretend in this case that the child was rescued.
However, in real-life these kinds of accidents do unfortunately happen. If, in this hypothetical situation, the child perished due to the toy, would the parent be guilty of sinning -- even if their original intention was good?
arachnophilia writes:
...the road to perdition is paved with good intentions. or so they say; i don't really believe that. no, i don't think accidents should be counted as sin. i'm not sure of the specific biblical perspective of it, but if i recall accidents that you feel bad about and sins of ignorance have a different sacrifice/atonement than willful sin. i'm not totally sure.
There some passage which talk about a man being guilty of sin if he fails to warn and cover a pit, if I recall corectly.
arachnophilia writes:
but i do think that's a good analogy. god did something good that resulted in somethign bad, and he regretted it. in either case, it seems to prove two things: that god is fallible (might just be a byproduct of human will) and that god can do something that god himself considers bad (even if it was for good reasons).
I realy thought hard about that one analogy before I presented it to you. I was praying that the Spirit open a door so that we could understand each other better. I think this analogy might have done it.
arachnophilia writes:
saying god sinned is to say that god made some kind of trespass against something or someone. since god is the highest authority, no one has any right to say that god commited a trespass.
Mr. Ex nihilo writes:
But doesn't God have the ability to judge his own actions?
arachnophilia writes:
well, yes. i think we agree here, maybe. god can judge his own actions as bad -- and repent. but we can't judge god's actions as evil.
the fact that we do is something of a conundrum, i admit. but this, plus the subjectivity of evil and objectivity of good might explain why we attribute only good, or both good and evil to god, but never JUST evil.
Ok, so we also agree that God never does something that is just evil.
arachnophilia writes:
therefore, god cannot sin, even if he can do things we call evil, and even if he can do things he calls mistakes.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Well, let's take a look at this statement for a minute.
First of all, God is apparently doing something that has a direct effect on humanity, something that he should be able to hold himself accountable for, correct?
Is God not aware of his own actions -- or is he simply above condemning himself?
arachnophilia writes:
i don't understand what you mean. why would god hold himself accountable for something?
If God is indeed a fair and good God, it seems reasonable that God would allow himself to be held accountable to us -- or at least seek some way to make amends.
arachnophilia writes:
i mean, granted, he seems to keep his promises and covenants, and i guess that's sort of the same thing. but what's he gonna do, punish himself?
Maybe that's why Christ came to earth.
arachnophilia writes:
the simple principle of the judeo-christian-islamic faith is that there is no higher authority than god. there is no one for him to repent to, or to condemn him. god is aware of his actions, and capable of feeling bad about them, too. in some manner, god could even say he sinned against us if he wanted to -- but for us to say so would be blasphemy, right?
I don;t know about that. Moses actually faced off against God and petitioned for Israel so that God would not destroy them all and start over.
arachnophilia writes:
(i'm convinced, btw, that there are a good many things in the bible that amount to blasphemy. i've been accused of blasphemy on this board for paraphrasing them before, too. but that's another debate, i think)
But I'm not accusing you of blasphemy, am I?
wow.
Do you agree that this is what the Israelites believed as well?
arachnophilia writes:
i think they used the word evil very differently than we do today -- the entire purpose of this debate, really. to them, evil seems to have had a few meanings, against god (the street example) or general misfortune. god is, of course, capable of causing misfortune. one needs only to read the bible to see that. but i don't think god can go against god.
Why were ten of the 613 commandments written by God's own finger on stone tablet's -- twice I might add?
arachnophilia writes:
today, we use evil as an objective moral standard, whole opposite and mutually exclusive to good. we've adapted this "against god" idea into a much larger one, involving a whole patron spirit as god's opponent. so god rules the good and the devil the bad, like the sun rules the day and the moon the night.
we have a simplistic dualistic standard for night and day, but it's really not as clear as that, is it? the analogy doesn't quite hold up: we've all seen the moon out in the daytime, right? but the sun is never out at night in most parts of the world (let's ignore alaska...)
normally we define the daytime by the presence of the sun. if it's out, it's daytime. but we don't define the night by the presence of the moon. it's the abscence of the sun. -- this is basically the standard you're presenting in this debate: evil is the abscence of god.
what i'm saying is that to the hebrews, evil would correlate with the moon in this analogy, not the abscence of the sun. it can be in the presence of the sun, but not make the day any less bright. the abscence of god can be seen as evil, but is just part of that subjective understanding.
Interesting thoughts. I'll have to meditate on this for a bit and get back to you.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
To be honest, I think it's not so much about good and evil. I think it's more probably about shame -- and the laying of blame to others who do not deserve it. It's about figuring out who is responsble for what and what's going to be done in response to each other's actions.
More importantly, although many tend to think of the account of the garden as a story of good vs. evil, I think it's more a story of how a loving God was willing to subject himself to the scrunity and judgements of his own creation.
arachnophilia writes:
well, i don't mean to say it's about good VERSUS evil. it's not. but evil is there in the story. it's the origin of mans' tendency to decide what is good and what is evil. something which the bible considers bad, like playing god, yet many people in the bible seem to do it anyways. leading by counterexample, i think.
So you do admit that good and evil is a fundamental paradigm of the story -- although not an exclusive element of it?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
As the late Pope John Paul II said,
Pope John Paul II writes:
"...in a certain sense one could say that confronted with our human freedom, God decided to make Himself 'impotent.' And one could say that God is paying for the great gift bestowed upon a being He created 'in his image, after his likeness' (cf. Gn 1:26). Before this gift, He remains consistent, and places Himself before the judgment of man..."
arachnophilia writes:
that sounds about like what i think to be the case personally (thought i don't know abotu scripturally). it makes sense that god would not have to not be omnipotent if we are to be truly free -- thus we are "given" the ability to judge, and choose right from wrong.
Yes but...
Did we ever have a choice in choosing?
Let me rephrse that. In order for something to truly be free, they have to have had the choice of whether they wanted to be free laid out before them.
Technically speaking, Adam and Eve were never given the choice of whether they wanted to make a choice in the first place -- since the choice was thrust upon them.
In other words, having the ability to choose, it could be argued, is actually more akin to a curse when juxtopositioned beside the ability to do God's will -- which doesn't appear to involve the option of going against his will.
In comparison to doing God's will, once one makes a choice, they are basically condemned to be free -- even if they choose to do good.
God, however, doesn't apear to have this ability to choose -- if indeed he already knows what he's going to do (since he apparently already knows the future, including his own). So, in a sense, the one who realizes they don't actually have a choice in doing good appears to be the one who is truly doing good in God's eyes.
I'd also like to get back to the concept of the "void" which existed prior to God's creation.
Is that ok?
arachnophilia writes:
oh dear god no, let's not. it was an analogy, and failed miserably. the genesis reading implies that god did not create the void, but does seem to imply god creating evil. so the analogy breaks down. it's also seemingly inconsistent with later books, that list god as creating everything includign evil.
but if we get on this again, we'll sit here and argue it until we both turn blue, and it's not really even on topic. i don't think there's a clear way to make sense of it -- how about we come back to it when we decide on a clear interpretation of the rest of it, and if choas really EQUALS evil, or is just a parallel.
Ok, we'll come back to it later.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-18-2005 02:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by arachnophilia, posted 10-17-2005 1:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 10-18-2005 3:52 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 55 of 102 (253075)
10-19-2005 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by arachnophilia
10-18-2005 3:52 AM


Re: bump
arachnophilia writes:
one short reply before i go to bed. you'll have to forgive the massive typos and grammatical errors i'm sure will be present, as i'm really really tired.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
One might note that prior to Adam and Eve partaking in the tree, they could see God in very tangible human forms. However, after that time, God appears with human qualities for only the most brief and stupendous of accasions.
Perhaps something changed after Adam and Eve knew good and evil like the unique one did. The text prior to the flood does seem to indicate that God's spirit in humanity was winding down so to speak.
arachnophilia writes:
i don't agree. god appears in tangible form more often post-flood and pre-flood, though most of these instances are in genesis (and one in exodus, if i recall). i am willing to say, however, that it is clear that god is withdrawing, and becoming less human in the eyes of the eyes of the authors, as the story progresses.
Ok. You say you don't agree -- but yet you do agree that it is clear that god is withdrawing, and becoming less human in the eyes of the eyes of the authors, as the story progresses.
Aside form the timing of the flood, what's the difference?
Let me rephrase that: Humanity is naked and unashamed with God in the beginning. Yet, by the time the flood stroy arrives, God is ready to utterly destroy the world and start over again with his "chosen people" -- ie., Noah and his family.
Something has definitely changed there -- and even though God does appear in the humanistic way like he did prior to Adam and Eve partaking in the tree, his appearance is still rather dramatic and usually a very fearful even traumatic experience for those who observe.
arachnophilia writes:
personally, i think it's some combination of the author's biases regarding patriarchal v. "modern" times, and god actually finding balance to allow the full extent of free will. kind of like the shallow end of the pool with waterwings vs. the deep end without when you're teaching a kid to swim.
Ok, fair enough for personal opinions -- but do you think this is what the Israelites believed?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
I'm not sure but he apparently does repent, so it is an interesting question as to who he has to repent to, if anyone.
arachnophilia writes:
well, he doesn't appear to be apologizing to us, at least in this instance. i think the word is just being used in a regret sense. strictly speaking, repenting is only feeling sorry and changing. it's only the colloquial usage that has to have an object to repent to.
Well, he does eventually remember Noah and his family. He does eventually stop the destruction that is "recreating" the world.
Mr. Ex nihilo writes:
There some passage which talk about a man being guilty of sin if he fails to warn and cover a pit, if I recall corectly.
arachnophilia writes:
same as neglecting a child.
But yet the Scriptures do say that God cares for his children -- so I'm not sure if neglecting a child would be a proper analogy in this sense.
Mr. Ex nihilo writes:
I realy thought hard about that one analogy before I presented it to you. I was praying that the Spirit open a door so that we could understand each other better. I think this analogy might have done it.
arachnophilia writes:
it brings up a question, though. my basic claim is that god can (and does) do "bad" that turns out good. here we have a scriptural example of god doing good, and it turning out bad. do you think my view is inconsistent with the fallible god of genesis? i don't think so, but i'm not sure. i'll think about it.
I think the initial pattern displayed in Genesis fairly well reads throughout the entirety of the Hebrew Scriptures. Isaiah portrays God as a Father -- and the Scriptures seem to portray God as a parent from beginning to end doing his best to lead his children along the correct path.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Ok, so we also agree that God never does something that is just evil.
arachnophilia writes:
as a matter of faith, i don't believe he does. i suppose he COULD, but i trust that god is also a pretty nice guy.
And, as a matter of concensus, the Scriptures never do come out and state that God is outright evil -- even if they do describe the end result of his actions in that manner.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
If God is indeed a fair and good God, it seems reasonable that God would allow himself to be held accountable to us -- or at least seek some way to make amends.
arachnophilia writes:
well, i dunno about holding god accountable. it's not really our place.
And yet God does inded ask the Israelites to hold him accountable to his words. I sometimes wonder if their failures were more of a result to of them failing to act as his conscience by proxy at times.
arachnophilia writes:
but i do think parts of the bible contain something of a history of god's attempts to get through to, and make amends with man. it could be said that jesus was one such attempt, god's gift to us. but then, of course, we'd have the sacrifice issue backwards, right?
Maybe...and maybe not.
arachnophilia writes:
i mean, granted, he seems to keep his promises and covenants, and i guess that's sort of the same thing. but what's he gonna do, punish himself?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Maybe that's why Christ came to earth.
arachnophilia writes:
i don't think that particular view makes much sense, personally.
Why not?
arachnophilia writes:
but this has been my crisis of faith for the last few years. i can't make christianity's foundation line up with judaism no matter how hard i try. but anyways, i suppose that's a separate great debate, right? feel free to weigh in on the atonement thread. mostly, i'm just bugging the hell out of iano, but i think the questions are legitimate in a devil's advocate kind of way.
I'll read through the thread and see what's going on there.
arachnophilia writes:
I don't know about that. Moses actually faced off against God and petitioned for Israel so that God would not destroy them all and start over.
arachnophilia writes:
well, moses seems to have had a special relationship with god. not all of us are prophets, and not all prophets are moses or david. but even then, i don't think he was accusing god -- he have lots of other examples of people convincing god to not do something they would be bad. for instance, abraham pleas for sodom to save lot.
But yet that is another possible example of humanity being God's conscience by proxy. Or, perhaps restated, God trusting man to make the correct choices for him when led by his Spirit.
arachnophilia writes:
i don't remember the specifics of the story offhand -- were they much different than that? i'll probably remember in the morning, too...
Did you remember it?
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
But I'm not accusing you of blasphemy, am I?
arachnophilia writes:
no, i don't think so, though some others could have.
BLASPHEMER!!!
just joking
arachnophilia writes:
saying god does evil could be considered blasphemy, couldn't it? yet there it is in isaiah. i think the bible records a good many things that people consider blasphemy. read as accusations, there would be much we could accuse god of -- i had a pretty long list and i didn't get out of exodus.
so the question is -- are these thing evil because we think they are? is it blasphemy to say god did something we think is evil, or to say what god does is evil? or is it just our judgement that's the problem?
Well, I still think it's an issue of language at times.
arachnophilia writes:
i think i opt for the last option.
The ambiguousness of some statements could be read either way. I think the true test is validated when one is led by the Spirit to defend God from accusation.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Why were ten of the 613 commandments written by God's own finger on stone tablet's -- twice I might add?
arachnophilia writes:
(and different the second time)
i covered this recently in the aforemention atonement thread with iano. the 10 commandments are a covenant, and agreement -- a contract. it's modelled after an ancient suzerainty treaty. the larger, occupying power identifies itself, lists its graces, and then the terms that the smaller power must adhere to. it's very one sided.
so, the commandments identify god as the larger power, israel as the lesser. god brought them out of egypt, therefor israel owes god obedience to the law. god isn't held to it, just israel.
And yet some passages do state that God cannot lie.
Yes, but the commandments are usually divided into two -- our duties to God and our duties to man. I agree that God cannot break the commandments which are related to our duty to him -- because God is the embodiment of these commandments:
Depending on how you break them down (and I'm not looking to argue about how one breaks down The Ten), one could note the following:
1: He is our God
2: He is our Image
3: He is our Sabbath
Therefore, God cannot break these commandments because he is these commandments.
When one looks at the duties toward man, one can note some examples:
1: Do not murder
2: Do not commit adultery
3: Do not steal
Now, interestingly enough, I don't recall God ever doing these things. I do see God apparently controlling the events which lead to these things, and I do see God allowing unclean spirits to do these things, but I do not see God coming down and directly doing these things to people himself.
My personal opinion is that God embodies these commandments as well:
1: God is everlasting life
2: God is our husband
3: God is the giver of all things
arachnophilia writes:
how about "thou shalt not kill?" god kills all the time --
Could you point out a passage of Scripture which actually says that God himself came down and killed someone?
arachnophilia writes:
it's part of his job description. the point is that WE aren't supposed to take that authority without permission from god.
I agree -- yet I've never seen a passage where God directly broke a commandment. In all cases, an angel or a person or nature is apparently causing these things according to God's will.
Again I will note the motion of the Spirit of the Lord -- going against it causes suffering -- even though God is apparnetly attempting to do good.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
So you do admit that good and evil is a fundamental paradigm of the story -- although not an exclusive element of it?
arachnophilia writes:
good AND evil, and good FROM evil. but not good VS evil.
What about evil coming from good?
Mr. Ex nihilo writes:
Yes but...
Did we ever have a choice in choosing?
Let me rephrse that. In order for something to truly be free, they have to have had the choice of whether they wanted to be free laid out before them.
Technically speaking, Adam and Eve were never given the choice of whether they wanted to make a choice in the first place -- since the choice was thrust upon them.
arachnophilia writes:
i think this kind of a like a "non-functional transitional species" argument. adam MUST have had a choice to start with, because he did not blindly obey god. he was presented with two influences; god who says "stay away" and a snake who says "god's wrong." those two options represent something similar to a choice.
i think much of this is really the path to true free will -- something which basically requires us to be on equal standing with god. i don't think we have that even today. but god's withdrawl or increasing impotence seems to be the cause.
I think you might be missing my point. I agree that Adam and Eve had a choice. But did they have a choice in choosing?
Let me rephrase it from a totally different perspective: The choice was apparently thrust upon Adam and Eve -- they never had a choice as to whether they actually wanted to choose in the first place
God however, being a supposedly everlasting, self-existant and unchanging being (who already knows the future I might add), most likely didn't have a choice as far as I'm able to determine.
Therefore, for Adam and Eve to have truly been like God, they would have had to have been in a position where "no choice" was even present -- and yet their eating from the tree apparently did not produce this result.
Do you understand what I'm getting at?
arachnophilia writes:
anyways, i think we're mostly agreeing again.
Mostly.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-19-2005 01:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by arachnophilia, posted 10-18-2005 3:52 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by arachnophilia, posted 10-20-2005 10:37 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 57 of 102 (253591)
10-21-2005 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by arachnophilia
10-20-2005 10:37 PM


Re: bump
I started to cut and paste and then I said to myself, "Gah! It's 3:38 in the morning!"
I'll edit this post tomorrow and respond then.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by arachnophilia, posted 10-20-2005 10:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by arachnophilia, posted 10-21-2005 7:06 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 59 of 102 (253941)
10-22-2005 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by arachnophilia
10-21-2005 7:06 PM


Re: bump
thanks.
It's 3:42 in the morning tonight. *yawn*
I just got done with a mega-post in another thread. I'll try to respond tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by arachnophilia, posted 10-21-2005 7:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by arachnophilia, posted 10-23-2005 5:55 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 61 of 102 (254842)
10-26-2005 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by arachnophilia
10-23-2005 5:55 AM


Re: bump
Everything ok down there?
I might be stepping out of the debate arach. I'm not sure but I think that I was warned in another thread by a mod about my posts being too long. If I can't really express my full thoughts on the matter, then I'm not really interested in persuing this.
I'll let you know what's going on once I know what I'm allowed and not allowed to do.
Hope all is going well with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by arachnophilia, posted 10-23-2005 5:55 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by arachnophilia, posted 10-29-2005 5:18 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 68 by Admin, posted 10-29-2005 6:43 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 62 of 102 (254991)
10-27-2005 2:36 AM


Short replies from here on in as per AdminPhat's request.
Earlier you said:
arachnophilia writes:
i do not think evil is represented as a set force independent of human influence and affect in the early bible. this is a position i'm not sure of: if you can demonstrate that they did believe evil was more than "bad things happening" and is instead an ultimate force competing against god's ultimate goodness, it would greatly further your side.
It seems to me that this passage might do just that...
NIV writes:
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."
This passage in the earliest chapters of the Genesis account does seem to portray sin as a set force independent of human influence and affect. It also tends to personify sin in the sense that it can crouch and take possesion of man -- it appears to be some force in which man must struggle to master.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 10-27-2005 03:05 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by arachnophilia, posted 11-13-2005 12:01 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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