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Member (Idle past 505 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Does god have free will? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nwr Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 4.5 |
By the way, your attribution is wrong. You quoted that text from me, but attributed it to PaulK. I'll take the liberty of correcting that while quoting you.
Phatboy writes:
I don't know the origin of "religion" - i.e. the etymology of the word. I'm not sure why that would matter.
nwr writes: Whereas we can't/won't do that in religion....What is the origin of "religion"? Science is skeptical, and willing to overturn the old when the evidence so indicates. 1) What one has been taught? (As Schraff suggests) or..
Okay, you were looking for how we acquire our religions, not the etymology. I don't think I would agree with "taught". It seems to me that a religion is a set of traditions that one acquires from the culture. If a belief system comes from being taught, but is not part of the traditions of the culture, then it is a cult, not a religion. At least that appears to be the usage.
2) What has been imparted from God to us.
I'm not convinced that anything has been imparted from God to us. It seems to me that it is always the other way around, an attribution of human views to God. Thus we see cases where those on both sides of a disagreement will claim that they are on the side of God.
If well meaning Christians throughout the ages have maintained that they know God and then attempt to be the spokesmen for God, they could fall into the trap of becoming gods themselves...."knowing right from wrong....legislating morality....and attributing it all to divine impartation!
Regrettably, this is close to what often happens. I don't think it is a matter of people wanting to become gods. It seems to be an attempt for people to assume an aura of authority, so as to more easily persuade their fellow citizens to listen to them.
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nator Member (Idle past 2198 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Right. We aquired the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil.
quote: Right. If God declared it Good to rape and pilliage, and Evil to nurture and comfort, it would instantly become Good/Evil to do these things.
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever and now, unless he reach out to me, and eat of my fruit, and live forever; quote: The rest is irrelevant to the issue of IF Adam and Eve have the same ability as God to discern Good frm Evil. The passage goes on to discuss their punishments.
So, now do you agree that humans, since Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, have exactly the same ability to know Good from Evil as God? quote: What? You just agreed with me abouve that humans, through Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, DO have that ability. Let me quote you again:
quote: So, which is it? Do we have the same ability as god to tell the difference between Good and Evil or not?
quote: I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.
quote: Well, I was testing at college level English and reading comprehension when I was in the 7th grade.
quote: I am simply reading the text in a very straightforward way. So far, you have failed to provide a clear explanation of why my reading is incorrect.
quote: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. Can you please explain why these two passages are important to the matter of if humans have the same ability as God to discern Good from Evil?
(caps mine) And therefore can MAN judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil? quote: Well, I would first ask what power God has to affect events in the Universe, and why it does not appear that the Universe is looked after by an all-loving, all-powerful God. If the Bible is correct and I have the same ability as God to know the difference between Good and Evil, AND God really is all-powerful and all-loving, then God would have a great deal of explaining to do for the seeming indifference and downright cruelty God has allowed to happen. Punishment? If God is all powerful, yet not all-loving, then I don't think there's much I'd be able to do to. It would just be a cruel, vengeful Evil God who's will would be done.
quote: According to the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they gained the same ability as God to know the difference. So, it seems that yes, humans can judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil, if we have the same ability as God. Can you please explain how this is not the case?
quote: According to the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they gained the same ability as God to know the difference. So, it seems that yes, humans can judge God's actions or inaction as Good or Evil, if we have the same ability as God. Can you please explain how this is not the case?
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b b Member (Idle past 6159 days) Posts: 77 From: baton rouge, La, usa Joined: |
Yes, you can, in your mind, judge whether his actions are right or not; I'm just saying your opinion of this does not effect the universe. His does.
God basically does what he feels to be right. This does not mean what we think to be right. "Thou shalt not kill" means man should not kill each other. This does not say it would be wrong for God to take someone or allow them to be taken. His commandments were for people. He may reserve certain actions, like retiring lives, for himself. Is that so hard to get. If you believe it or not; that's you. But it does make sense even as a theory. (which is exactly what big bang and evolution are)
Punishment? If God is all powerful, yet not all-loving, then I don't think there's much I'd be able to do to. It would just be a cruel, vengeful Evil God who's will would be done Vengence is mine. Ever remember that in the bible? I just don't agree with the cruel and evil part. The bible clearly states him to be vengeful I believe. Doesn't it?
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b b Member (Idle past 6159 days) Posts: 77 From: baton rouge, La, usa Joined: |
It was Abraham, you claim to be christian and yet don't know this? That wasn't in my requirements for becoming a christian. Let me see yours. Maybe I have the outdated version? Let me see.
So you admit to being a sociopath. No, because for some strange reason he never asked me to kill anyone. Moron
No I wouldn't, I'd tell your mythical being to go Idiot, do you talk to mythical beings? "If" (which did start the question) he appeared in front of you and told you to kill yourself, he's no longer a mythical being. What you really look in the face of God and tell him what you just said? I bet there's plenty of humans you would be to cowardly to say that too. Really and truly you probably can only talk big and bold on a forum. Tell it to your boss-he'll fire you. Tell it to God-He'll "fire" you permanently. Please don't be foolish.
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Funkaloyd Inactive Member |
b b writes: ...he never asked me to kill anyone. You're an unrealised sociopath?
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Mr. Ex Nihilo Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 712 Joined: |
I usually post long responses -- but I'll keep this short and simple.
No. I don't believe that God has a free-will. If indeed he already knows the future, then it seems to me that he also already knows what he will do in the future too. In saying this I admit it may yet be found that God is above these logical "time-space" contraints, that his timeless omnipresence somehow enables him to step outside his own future choices -- somehow embodying all possibilities at once and that he himself is the locus of all that could ever be -- but this seems to lead to a very complicated mess. I guess I think of the old question, "Can God make a stone so heavy he can't lift it?" Like the question of God having a free-will, my simple answer is no. I don't believe that God can outdo himself -- he is the very definition is his own limitations. Hope that answer was short enough.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2290 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.9 |
No, because for some strange reason he never asked me to kill anyone.
Killing people is not one of the requirements for being a sociopath.
do you talk to mythical beings? "If" (which did start the question) he appeared in front of you and told you to kill yourself, he's no longer a mythical being.
That statement of mine needed a bit of clarification. I meant mythical as in "He's not who/what you think he is", sure there might be an entity out there posing as the christian god but he's full of hot air, don't beleive the hype.
Tell it to God-He'll "fire" you permanently
No he won't cause he doesn't have that kind of power, he's a charlatan. If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! *not an actual doctor
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Mr. Ex Nihilo Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 712 Joined: |
As a general response, I guess I'll note that the text in Genesis actually literally says: "Man how now become like the unique one among us..."
I know many will disagree with me, but I do not think the "unique one" is a reference to God. Many things fall in place for me if the unique one is understood as reference to the adversary.
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