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Author Topic:   Silly Design Institute: Let's discuss BOTH sides of the Design Controversy...
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 32 of 219 (252078)
10-15-2005 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jeremy
10-13-2005 10:02 PM


Re: Sorry
You'll learn Jeremy. My first posts here were similar. This is a large board with several fairly major divisions, some of which I have very little interest in (debating what the bible does or doesn't mean is relatively irrelevant in my world-view), and others where I find a lot of interest (I stay mostly on the science boards.)
This means there are likely places for anyone to find topics of interest.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 219 (252147)
10-16-2005 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
09-17-2005 1:25 PM


Flagellum's Funny Flailing
One of the "icons" of the Neo-Paleyist "intelligent" design concepts is the bacterial flagellum. Whether or not this concept has been debunked as an "irreducibly complex" mechanism is open to some discussion, but here we look at whether this "icon" of many an ID essay has the markings of "intelligent" design or those of "silly" design.

Flagellum Fun Facts

First lets look at a diagram of this mechanism, drawn to make it look as mechanical as possible:

What happens is that ions cause the base to rotate, the "hook" is fixed (to aim the whip-like end of the flagellum) and the end whips about while it spins, at speeds that can reach many 100 Hertz (revolutions per second), and driving the bacterial cell at several body lengths a second (1).
{abe}An nice animation of this mechanism can be seen at the Access Research Network Molecular Machines Museum website on The Bacterial Flagellum. {/abe}
Obviously a highly efficient motor design, making maximum usage of the energy expended ... or is it?

Here we have a similar arrangement, the spinning drive mechanism extends down a tube, is turned and then exits the "hook" to turn the drive part of the motor, a small propeller.
We know one of these mechanisms was intentionally designed as a method of locomotion and for maximum efficiency in it's use of energy. Furthermore we know that the elements of this design have been developed over the course of many years of experimentation to select the best gear ratios, material strengths, power ratings and propeller design. Propellers in particular have undergone extreme design for improved efficiency, borrowing from the more prolific design of airplane wings and propellers in the process (such borrowing being an element frequently seen in good design when some other design element already is known to work and work well).
So the question is whether the flagellum design measures up to the known reference intelligent design, or is it just flailing about?

Any Bubba Can Do This Experiment

There is a simple experiment that anyone with ready access to a couple of similar boats with similar engines can do evaluate the question:
  • Use one boat as-is: this is the control, the known intelligent design
  • On the other remove the propeller and replace it with a 50 foot length of 1" diameter hose, hose clamped tightly to the driveshaft\spindle of the outboard
  • Load up the boats with kids (so they can ask "are we there yet?")
  • Race. See who gets "out of the hole" first, who tops out first and what their tops speeds are.
  • Put in reverse and repeat.
  • Match speed and compare engine RPM (revolutions per minute) and fuel consumption.
  • If you feel that you need more evidence, try different size hoses and different lengths.
  • See if the kids are laughing at the hose or the propeller.

Oh, and if the flagellum design wins? Publish, become a national hero to endangered manatees, broken propellers sufferers, etcetera and put many propeller design companies out of work.
Note: a 25 foot boat traveling at 50 mph is traveling ~3 times its length in a second.

Silliness

Now consider that it would be extremely easy to make the flagellum become a propeller by the intelligent input of design information from other available systems. The flagellum could be easily split into two (or more) filaments that are then flattened and angled apart in a "Y" type pattern, and with one leg bent up and one down and both shortened (less material overall = more efficient design) you have a rudimentary propeller. Add some twist and some shape (such as you find on a penguin wing - used to "fly" underwater) and you have a more efficient design.
We can get an idea of what this simple modification would look like by again referring to known intelligent design, this time to an early propeller design before scientific methods were applied (2):


Except of course that a central spindle is not necessary and could be eliminated. But even these early propellers are silly by today's standards of design (3).
The hose on the other hand can be nothing but a silly way to waste gas.
This mechanism displays an excessively high Silliness Index (SI).
Enjoy.

References

  1. The bacterial flagella motor. PubMed on-line article from Adv Microb Physiol. 1999;41:291-337.
  2. Timetable: Development of the Propeller. On line article.
  3. History & Design of Propeller. On line article.
Edited by RAZD, : updated sig
Edited by RAZD, : pictures
Edited by RAZD, : white background for propeller picture

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 09-17-2005 1:25 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 219 (252158)
10-16-2005 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
10-16-2005 11:29 AM


Re: Flagellum's Funny Flailing
having trouble with server, loading not completed yet.
You can see a nice animation of the flagellum at ARN
http://www.arn.org/docs/mm/flagellum_all.htm

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 10-16-2005 11:29 AM jar has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 36 of 219 (259075)
11-12-2005 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
10-16-2005 11:29 AM


Pictures now loading better
pictures now on a new site (thanks percy) and should load a lot faster as well.
{changed subtitle}
This message has been edited by RAZD, 11*12*2005 12:08 PM

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 37 of 219 (263609)
11-27-2005 8:32 PM


bump
because I'm feeling silly

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Thor, posted 11-27-2005 9:48 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 44 of 219 (263867)
11-28-2005 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by TimChase
11-28-2005 8:59 AM


Re: Investigator: Eye's Silly Design (paper #1)
...with eight different pigments for vision, and thus apparently the ability to see eight different primary colors.
You mean cones eh? Beats birds eating those poor peppered moths to heck.
... whereas it seemed at one time that vision had been invented about {*} times in the history of life, apparently at the genetic level, it was invented only once.
Couldn't that just be the gene for light sensitivity from which all other eyes developed? The most primitive level of sight, but also most likely for the most primitive of multicell life forms, to regulate life to the rise and fall of the sun?
{*} - missing a quantifier there?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by TimChase, posted 11-28-2005 8:59 AM TimChase has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 46 of 219 (263870)
11-28-2005 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Thor
11-27-2005 9:48 PM


Re: bump
You are forgetting the value of ornamentation.
You haven't lived until you have painted your toenails seven different shades of green with white stars and red rockets so that you can show off at the winter solstice dance (barefoot in the woods by the light of a new moon?)
Of course this means it falls into mating behavior, and we know how silly that is.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 47 of 219 (263871)
11-28-2005 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by TimChase
11-28-2005 6:13 PM


Re: Box Jellyfish
even if the organism has no brain? (netting to see with?)
(sounds like a strawman argument ...)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by TimChase, posted 11-28-2005 6:13 PM TimChase has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 54 of 219 (263959)
11-28-2005 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by TimChase
11-28-2005 6:36 PM


Re: Box Jellyfish
But how could it have possibly had gametes if it were only single-celled?
conjugal bliss? or the origin of sex in the first place?
Page Not Found | HHMI BioInteractive

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by TimChase, posted 11-28-2005 6:36 PM TimChase has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 56 of 219 (263969)
11-28-2005 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by gnojek
11-28-2005 8:10 PM


Showing silliness is the answer.
So, I don't know, but maybe you do know if on the scale of a flagellum ,would a propeller-like configuration actually impart MORE or LESS motility to the bacterium?
You would need to look at the reynolds numbers for the surface\speed relationship to do the speed comparison properly of course.
Reynolds Number Calculator
This is part of how information from scale models is interpreted to the full size design.
This is what also makes the keels of sailboats in water have virtually the same design requirement as wings of airplanes in atmosphere (same speed to fluid density ratio).
What the propeller vs wavy string issue is talking about is the efficiency of design in creating the desired movement. The major problems are going to be wasted energy (not focused on direct movement forward) and extra drag (lots of surface contact), both evident in the flagella.
Ok, it sounds like the bacterium is winning when scale is not taken into account.
Isn't that doing just what you criticised? (and how many is "several"? )
but if they are meant to prove any kind of point...
It is that the purpose of design is as important as the {fact\evidence\implication} of any design. If the result is silly, well then the design can't have been all that intelligent eh? (unless intended so ... still = silly design).

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 58 of 219 (274385)
12-31-2005 11:38 AM


bump
any new ID proponents?

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS\HIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 59 of 219 (284514)
02-06-2006 9:27 PM


Pictures not loading
hopefully only a temporary problem.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 61 of 219 (331400)
07-13-2006 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Clark
07-13-2006 12:38 AM


Re: God's Greatest Mistakes
Thanks. I've bookmarked it for reference. Of course this shows Silly Design features in the flounders.
The IDists need to consider all the evidence and both sides of the flounder ... er, design controversy.
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 66 of 219 (368646)
12-09-2006 1:21 PM


For the new "ID" people ... a bump
It is time to revive the Design Controversy, and show again that the Silly Design Institute has much more substantiation for their concept than the neo-Paleyism of the so called "intelligent" design movement.
For intelligent design cannot account for all the diversity of life as we know it, and some things are just too silly to be intelligent.
See Message 1 and linked papers.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : link to Message 1

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 68 of 219 (515527)
07-18-2009 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by RAZD
12-09-2006 1:21 PM


Re: For the new "ID" people ... a bumpitty bump bump
pictures fixed,
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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