Fine tuning: a discussion for the rest of us mortals

Honest observation. Read the great debate, "My thoughts on a designer".The flaw on the logic, is a simplistic viewpoint. It's far more complex than your analogies IMHO. Just some of the instances I mention are observable, and basically are explained very well, via a mind being at play.I'll give an example so you can understand how I think;Friction to hold things together. [Why if it's random universe] [Explained if it's a mindful attribute]Time for things to happen. [Why if it's a random universe] [Explained if it's a mindful attribute]Heat for energy. Any source too close will cook, so we shall have a large heat source which radiates through a vacuum, and a lesser light for night, which is harmless. [why if it's a random universe] [Explained if it's a mindful attribute].So as you can see; honest observation and deduction from what I learn.It's not something I favour. I am not that arsed anymore, if it's random, it just doesn't appear to be, to me.The consistent question that plagues my mind, is that a random universe wouldn't have so many orderly and purposeful factors. It "just being that way" is almost as useless as "Goddidit".This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-18-2005 09:09 PM

You miss the point. There is no need for friction in a random universe. Nor any of these other traits, which just happen to be absolutely necessary for anything to happen in this place.As surely as an aircraft allows passengers to fly, if it was random it would simply not be there.Since the unvierse shows "workings" of a mind, then IMHO, there is no difference. Can't I say both? What makes you think they're mutually exclusive? Not that I am suggesting anything like this in the first place, as;Your analogy poses that the sky being blue is somehow necessary for my survival, and the survival of every living being, ever, and for the existence of matter holding. Since your analogy doesn't show this in any way, then that's not infact an adequate substitution for what I am saying, but rather a cunning analogy with lots of spin on it, IMHO.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-18-2005 09:37 PM

I suggest all referrals to me read the Great Debate between me and NWR. this thread is for everyone else, so I won't get involved. This assumes it's hypothetic; that there are many universes. We must buy into the fact that there are multiple universes, in order for you to be correct.As far as I know, there is only one. If they are popping up everywhere, my thoughts were that "everywhere" and everything is equated with "the universe". Nothing else has been found, and is therefore speculation.If we are sticking to facts, then conjecture won't allow us to conclude anything but rather we shall go around in circles claiming vacuous truths.Suggesting hypothetical possibilities is useless, Imho. My dad does it all of the time. He said "I must close the window incase a firework comes through it". Entirely possible, entirely vacuous. I could have dinner with aliens, and attend mass on future mars, pending invention of a time machine next week. That's because maybe, you're not looking at examples/instances in the universe, which would require thought IMHO. Like my example of a moon-satellite being a heater, would cook us, and a big distance between the sun and earth, would require a vacuum to radiate heat. These instances, require thought IMHO, or are best described as having "thought" cause these instances to be possible.Chance seems to be a none-answer to me. God doesn't play dice. And if he does, then mike is only saying that he knows the variables involved.Even a chaotic -none-system is allowable because of the arrangement of fine-tuning.Think about it like this; A calendar has gaps, and it seems a waste of space, but it is useful in another indirect way. So chance itself requires a designer, as chance is of this universe, evidentially. So....I won't get involved in this thread. I just hope you read this so you can understand that even if I am wrong, I have my reasons for thinking this way.