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Author Topic:   Take the state out of the schools!!!!!
funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 107 (26349)
12-11-2002 6:50 PM


Alot has been made in the past of the seperation of Church and state. Also on taking church out of schools. Well I believe the state should be removed from schools. I propose that education should be owned operated and funded by the parents. Remove the state completely! How many of us trust politicians? Why would we trust them with the minds of our children?
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saved by grace

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by gene90, posted 12-11-2002 7:02 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 107 (26351)
12-11-2002 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by gene90
12-11-2002 7:02 PM


No what I was suggesting is that children be schooled by their parents/whoever there parents would have school them. It's not up to the state anyways. Those children do not belong to them. Let the parents raise and teach their children the way it was meant to be.
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Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 107 (26471)
12-13-2002 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by edge
12-12-2002 11:39 PM


I understand that this sounds ridiculous. I also know that things would have to drastically change in order to make this idea work. However I am highly in favour of the old mentor/apprentice system. This would only require the parents to give their children basic skills like math, science basics as well as language and history. I have found that you cannot force anyone to learn anything. This is what the school system attempts to do. Force feed you knowledge screaming at you the whole time that your life depends on this.
Now wouldn't it be better if parents just gave their children the basic knowledge they need. Teach them to think! This way they can learn what they need from there, knowing the basics, they can learn what they need/want to from there.
The old practice of mentoring would enable people to choose the career they would like to pursue, and learn practically using this thinking ability they learned from their parents.
I think overall it would result in a more educated happier population.
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Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 107 (26514)
12-13-2002 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by John
12-13-2002 12:38 PM


Karl, I've heard this argument before that parents aren't smart enough to educate their children. I don't buy that. I didn't say that it had to be just the parents either. A wise parent knows when to allow someone else to teach about something they don't know. Although I think just about any parent should be able to teach their children the basics in math, science and history, language.
The mentor/apprentice thing I guess is more in the choosing of work, after or during their education young adults can begin to apprentice for whatever type of work they think they would like to do. Now if we found that colleges/universities were needed for some job training then we should have this available.
I wonder at the necessity of this though it would seem to me that on the job training is much more useful. Even in todays system no-one wants to hire someone straight out of university. They'd rather hire in someone who has real experience. Not just "book smarts".
So I just suggest parents hone their childs ability to think and reason, giving them basic skills and information they need. Then train them on the job for what ever field of work they are interested in.
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by John, posted 12-13-2002 12:38 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by gene90, posted 12-13-2002 5:59 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied
 Message 23 by John, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 107 (26536)
12-13-2002 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by gene90
12-13-2002 5:59 PM


See with the science education all you really need to give them is an understanding of the scientific process, as well as basic principles. If you are teaching your child how to think they can use this process to understand science. I know lately, now that I have an understanding of how the scientific process works, that I understand science alot more. Once you know how to form a hypothesis, and how to test it you're set, providing you know how to think as opposed to just regurgitating information. Teach them how to use this tool. Whether or not you as a parent have extensive knowledge of the current scientific developments you can still teach the process.
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saved by grace

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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 107 (26604)
12-14-2002 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by John
12-14-2002 3:21 PM


I just think it's a much better system, because the teacher actually cares about the child. It also allows the parents to actually raise their children, instead of leaving them to the charge of the public school system for 2/3 of the day.
I believe what Chara said, that teaching is not just feeding facts. I don't think you need a university degree in an area to teach someone about something. Teaching them how to find things out for themselves is more important than teaching them facts. My apologies to any teachers who may read this, but the public school system is a joke. 90% of the teachers could care less about their students. Will continue this later.
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by John, posted 12-14-2002 3:21 PM John has replied

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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 107 (26658)
12-15-2002 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by mark24
12-13-2002 8:01 PM


quote:
This concept of homeschooling horrifies me.
I don't see how this is horrifying. Unless you are scared that people might decide to think differently than what the public system would lead them to "think". Though I think this is the problem, that the system does not encourage thinking, merely a regurgitation of information. This is more horrifying to me.
quote:
True, there are some shite schools,
Only some! I would venture to guess most!
quote:
but how on earth can one set of parents possibly hope to compete with people who have done nothing but study subject xyz for 3 years plus?
Just because you studied a subject for 3 years doesn't make you qualified to teach. You may know a great deal about the subject but do you have a heart and a gift to teach it? I have run into teachers who are brilliant, but were terrible teachers.
I know Chara said something about learning together, with your children. This seems even better! Now not only did we learn together but we learned how to find out the answer. The effort of findig it out makes what's learned stick in your mind better. If someone just tells you something, I would think you would be more likely to forget what you have "learned", than if you found out yourself.
It is a parents job (imo) to instruct and raise their children. If the child is in the care of an institution 75% of their time, who's having the greater influence on the child? Does this institution love that child?
quote:
I seriously worry at the parents agendas when they feel they have to homeschool their kids.
If a parent loves their children enough to take from their own time their own goals/career, to guarantee that their child gets the best possible education, that's a scary agenda? For them to want their children to learn from a teacher who provides a loving environment, and one on one instruction is wrong? I thought it was us Christians/creationist who were paranoid seeing a conspiracy around every corner?
A parent who loves their child knows how that child learns. A parent who loves their children will go to all ends to provide a proper education. A parent who loves their child is a better instructor than a university graduate who is just making a paycheque. (again my apologies to any teachers who read this, I know there are some excellent teachers out there, I've had a few. There are just not nearly enough to justify this system)
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by mark24, posted 12-13-2002 8:01 PM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by mark24, posted 12-15-2002 5:17 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 107 (26666)
12-15-2002 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by mark24
12-15-2002 5:17 PM


quote:
A non-argument.
Woah there just because you don't like what I say doesn't invalidate my argument.
quote:
What makes you think parents are good teachers, anyway?
Well I should hope they are good teachers, that's what they signed on for when the brought a child into this world.
quote:
If you had two people, one, the parent, & the other a qualified teacher holding a mathematics degree, who would most likely make the best job of imparting mathematical knowledge to the child?
Most likely the one who cared if the child understood the concepts being taught. So I'd say the parent. For one a mathematics degree is not necessary to teach through to high school math. It was always my mother who was able to teach me mathematical concepts. The person with the degree was almost always useless to me. How does a university degree make you a qualified teacher?
quote:
Do you see how silly your argument sounds?
No I don't. No offence to you, but it is your argument that seems silly to me. You seem to just keep asserting that parents are stupid, and are hung up on some paranoia against a thinking population. You scared kids might catch a mind.
quote:
That there are bad teachers is irrelevant, their are bad teaching parents too. At least the teacher accredited by the relevant authorities.
That most teachers don't care about each child in their class is relevant. The fact that this system only works for a very small percentage of kids is relevant. You will also notice in previous posts that I said wise parents will get help when it is required. Also that I am not against post secondary educational institutions. I am not suggesting parents teach university level courses. Though I am sugesting that for most (not all) proffessions, the old system of mentor/apprenticeship is a better idea, with more productive results than class room instruction.
quote:
What is the real reason parents want to homeschool their children, apart from depriving them of day long interaction with large numbers of their peers? What are they afraid of, that their kids will catch evolution?
I would say the real reason is that the education system is non-functional, that it causes severe social difficulties for most children, and is in general detrimental to the development of their children.
There are other ways of providing social interaction with their peers. All sorts of organizations exist for this very purpose, not to mention the fact that children seem to just meet friends anyway. Music/art or athletic programs are great for this also. Not to mention they add to the education of the child.
It's not just Christians who homeschool their kids Mark, your looking through a limited scope there. It's nothing to get paranoid about. It's a one on one system that provides a more diverse and thorough education than a school can hope to provide. It's not a a creationist plot to eradicate evolution.
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saved by grace
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-15-2002]
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-15-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 107 (26683)
12-15-2002 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by joz
12-15-2002 9:19 PM


Joz,
Your argument is a good one, I tend to forget things are different elsewhere, the thing is I see this system of home education doing good on so many more levels. I think it would be good for the family unit (something that is nearly completely destroyed, at least in North America). Kids are being emotionally destroyed over here, by teachers and by peers. Why do you think we have kids shooting up schools, and difficulty with drug abuse in school aged kids? This is not normal/healthy behaviour, and it's getting worse instead of better. More and more kids are burdened with the importance of their education and more and more of them are giving up and don't care.
I found a couple of articles by home educators that some of you may find interesting.
http://www.newhomemaker.com/family/parenting/home2.html
The Underground History of American Education - John Taylor Gatto
I personally thought both of these article were very good.
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saved by grace

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Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 107 (26685)
12-16-2002 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Tranquility Base
12-15-2002 11:43 PM


TB,
This is also an idea I think is excellent, and probably the better bet. It is more practical than trying to completely scrap a system. However I am still a firm advocate of home schooling I think it's the best system. I wish more parents would see the benefit of this. I admit it would take alot more effort on the parents part to educate their child as opposed to just sending them off to school. But what better investment of a parents time/effort is there than into the lives of their children?
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-15-2002 11:43 PM Tranquility Base has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tranquility Base, posted 12-16-2002 12:36 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 107 (26691)
12-16-2002 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Tranquility Base
12-16-2002 12:36 AM


True this makes sense like I said before. I agree with you completely.
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 2:48 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 107 (26698)
12-16-2002 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Quetzal
12-16-2002 2:48 AM


Okay I can see that, and I'm so very glad that you are able to get the best out of the system for your kids, that's awesome to hear! To be honest most of what I know of the public school system is negative. I run into more people damaged by it than enriched through it. I am happy to hear that this is not always the case. Though I think North America could definately use a major revamping of it's educational system. A change to incorporate and encourage parental involvment in the guidance and refining of our young minds. I can look for some statistics.
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saved by grace
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-16-2002]
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 107 (26701)
12-16-2002 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Quetzal
12-16-2002 2:48 AM


http://www.utah-uhea.org/stats.html
this is one link I found so far, seems to show success from the homeschooling aproach.
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saved by grace

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 2:48 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Quetzal, posted 12-16-2002 4:05 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 107 (26706)
12-16-2002 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Quetzal
12-16-2002 4:05 AM


Quetzal,
First off glad to see you've forgiven me (or seem to have) for my blow up in another thread, I appreciate the ability to forgive in a person. Another thing that maybe needs clarification in this thread is that I'm not in the U.S either and have never lived there. I am in Canada always have been, so my knowledge of the U.S public school system is mostly second hand. Except for a couple friends who have dual citizenship and have attended public school in both countries I don't have alot of knowledge of the system in the U.S. Though I'm guessing it's even further down the tube than ours, Canadians are a little bit slower in the degradation process.
Quetzal I will continue to search for more statistics to support my opinion, realizing I should have done this to begin with. I am leary of stats mind you, if you really search hard enough you can find statistics to support just about anything. It's like hockey stats, they don't always reflect the best player on the ice, eh. lol.. I will see if I can find some more reliable statistics, I see where the ones I provided are limited, to be honest I just took the first ones I found. Thanx for the input to this discussion though, it has made me think my position over.
I should also point out that I completely agree with TB (posts #31 & #33). I have taken an extreme position for the sake of debate. Though I still assert that in some cases, and maybe even most the parents could even teach the academic areas as well.
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saved by grace
[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-16-2002]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 107 (26711)
12-16-2002 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by funkmasterfreaky
12-16-2002 4:19 AM


Another article of interest to this topic.
An A for Home Schooling: It’s giving 2 million kids a good education, sound values, and a rich family life. If unaccredited parents can do it, why can’t the public schools? | City Journal
will continue to search for stats. Despite my skepticism of the credibility of statistics.
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Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
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