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Author Topic:   Take the state out of the schools!!!!!
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 46 of 107 (26980)
12-17-2002 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by funkmasterfreaky
12-15-2002 6:20 PM


quote:
What makes you think parents are good teachers, anyway?
quote:
Well I should hope they are good teachers, that's what they signed on for when the brought a child into this world.
Well, yes, we can hope, but it is naieve to think that most people who have kids do it with a whole lot of forethought.
I think most people have kids because they expect to get married and have a family and they don't think about it much beyond that.
quote:
If you had two people, one, the parent, & the other a qualified teacher holding a mathematics degree, who would most likely make the best job of imparting mathematical knowledge to the child?
quote:
Most likely the one who cared if the child understood the concepts being taught. So I'd say the parent. For one a mathematics degree is not necessary to teach through to high school math.
Gee, do you think that most Americans have a good enough grounding in math, including triganometry and calculus, to be able to teach it?
I don't.
quote:
That most teachers don't care about each child in their class is relevant. The fact that this system only works for a very small percentage of kids is relevant.
...and the schools that work are almost always the ones with the most money. Go figure.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 6:20 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 47 of 107 (26983)
12-17-2002 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by funkmasterfreaky
12-15-2002 10:08 PM


quote:
Why do you think we have kids shooting up schools,
Easy availability of guns in the US?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-15-2002 10:08 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 1:26 PM nator has replied

obsidian
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 107 (26985)
12-17-2002 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by funkmasterfreaky
12-16-2002 5:25 AM


Hey all, just stopping by for a sec.... but I wanted to bring up some issues with home schooling.
Home schooling is for the middle class.... it is essentially impossible to institute it for the entire US at least. Why? Because it requires that at least one parent stays home and is motivated enough to teach a child. The rich... well they can just send their kids off to private school. For the poor... a lot of inner city families cannot afford to do this and single moms cannot afford to do this. It is unrealistic to adopt a policy of home schooling for America. I think those parents that want it, well we should let them know they can... but otherwise stay out of it.
I think that home schooling would work in many ways. But I also feel that a home schooled kid misses out on A LOT. I was friends with a kid who left in the fourth grade to become home schooled. Since she was home schooled, she was not allowed to participate in any school related activities, such as National Honor Society, Varsity sports, or band. Since she was home schooled, she missed the PSAT test and general college prep given by the highschool. Since she was home schooled, she had no unbiased 'grades' to present to a university when applying. It sucks, she has had to work hard to recover from the detriments imposed by home schooling on her college career and social life.
Just some things to think about.
Obsidian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-16-2002 5:25 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
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Mespo
Member (Idle past 2884 days)
Posts: 158
From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
Joined: 09-19-2002


Message 49 of 107 (26998)
12-17-2002 12:29 PM


Hi all,
I've been lurking on this thread and thought I'd weigh in FOR public education. Why? Because I live in a school district that works. Although statistical analysis is fine for what is happening in your nation or state or province, it really comes down to what is happening within a 10 mile radius of your home.
So, let me tell you about a real place called Middlefield, Ohio with a real school district called Cardinal with a real high school with about 420 students in grades 9-12. Like I said before, it works. It's blue collar, small town, USA.
The parents are involved. That is critcal to success. They're involved to the point of insuring that the school board hires the best educators. That the school is an integral part of the community and vise versa. That they support football games, and basketball and band concerts and theater productions and art shows and community outreach programs. And they cheer their kids on in fair weather or foul, in victory or defeat, in success or failure. That they support the academic program and entrust the teachers to educate their children to the best of the educator's ability. That they look out for trouble-in-the-making and nip it in the bud, be it drugs, alcohol or illegal weapons.
That our PUBLIC school provides after school tutoring programs for home schoolers. The higher the grade, the more home school parents drop out or throw up their hands in frustration. In the state of Ohio, home school parents are required to teach a state curriculum in order to get high school graduation credit. And without that state certified graduation certificate, no employer or institution of higher learning will give you the time of day. PERIOD! Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. But it's how it is. You deal with it.
This program works for religious schools too, BTW, because it IS all about parents. And parents who truely love their children prepare them for the adult world by giving them maximum exposure with as many opportunites and experiences as possible. There are some good home schoolers out there, but they are few and far between. My EXPERIENCE with home schoolers has been that too many of them have a political / religious axe to grind. They think they are better than the institutions that they despise. But on the kitchen table, along with the text books are all their prejudices, preconceptions, biases, loves and hatreds. There is no other point of view except that of the parent.
And my bias is FOR public education. I hope it shows.
(:raig
------------------

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 107 (27015)
12-17-2002 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by nator
12-17-2002 10:34 AM


quote:
Yes, considering that today more people in the US than ever believe in silliness like homeopathy, magnet therapy, and psychic's ability to talk to the dead.
It is too much to ask people to think critically when uncritical thought is at an all time high among our population.
This again points to the education system. People take what the read/hear as fact, because they have been taught to regurgitate information instead of process it.
Thanx for solidifying my belief that the current system doesn't work.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:34 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 107 (27019)
12-17-2002 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by nator
12-17-2002 10:57 AM


quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why do you think we have kids shooting up schools,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Easy availability of guns in the US?
Sorry Schraf this seems like the cop out excuse to this problem. Personally I hate the idea of any sort of gun control. (this is a whole new thread) Don't you think an educated mass should be able to teach their children that it is wrong to shoot others!? I think these occurances have more to do with the social damage that kids are sustaining in the school system.
I personally did not have a good go of the public school system, when I saw the Columbine shooting on the news it was not a shock. It saddened me greatly that these kids had not been able to cope with their situation and had destroyed their own lives in anger. However it was an event that was becoming inevitable, you would not believe the amount of kids in our systems who have a "hit list" of peers and teachers in their schools. I don't think this problem is anywhere near over, though the footage from Columbine may be deterring others with the same ideas.
I know I entertained this very thought many times growing up in the public school system, I just eventually chose drug abuse instead.
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 12-17-2002 10:57 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 52 of 107 (27027)
12-17-2002 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by funkmasterfreaky
12-17-2002 1:26 PM


quote:
Easy availability of guns in the US?
Mass school shootings have occured in EU countries that aren't so armed to the teeth. (Germany, and I think, the UK)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 1:26 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Primordial Egg, posted 12-17-2002 2:03 PM gene90 has not replied
 Message 60 by Mammuthus, posted 12-18-2002 3:23 AM gene90 has replied

funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 107 (27029)
12-17-2002 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by obsidian
12-17-2002 11:05 AM


quote:
. Why? Because it requires that at least one parent stays home and is motivated enough to teach a child. The rich... well they can just send their kids off to private school. For the poor... a lot of inner city families cannot afford to do this and single moms cannot afford to do this. It is unrealistic to adopt a policy of home schooling for America. I think those parents that want it, well we should let them know they can... but otherwise stay out of it.
Obsidian,
You make some excellent points here that I was wondering when they were going to come up. Anothe problem I see with completely removing the current system is coming up with a curriculum.
Part of the problem with our current system has been pointed out, the economics that gets involved. You stand a much better chance to get a good education if you are born into a rich family and live in a wealthy neighbourhood. This is not how our wonderful freedom is supposed to work, is it? Otherwise it is still as it has always been in any other "class" oriented society. The rich nobles get the best education and remain the rich nobles, while the poor peasants get a shoddy hasty education and remain poor peasants.
I also understand the problem of single parent families, completely switching to a home system would be impossible for such people. First off any man who abandons his children and wife (girlfriend, whatever) alone to fend for themselves is no man at all. (I understand that their are other unavoidable reasons for single parenthood) This is another example of how TB had the better idea, I am clinging stubbornly to my position for arguments sake. Also another example of how the church is not doing it's job in caring for the widowed. So with a functional church and men of integrity this would be an easily licked problem.
Another problem I have which you touched on is the two working parents. I think alot of the time (not all) that this is selfishness on the part of the mother. Where she is more concerned about her career than her children and shirks her responsibility as a mother to further her own personal goals. I admit there are situations were it is necessary for both parents to work, some employers in the service industry especially offer pathetic wages, that make it difficult for a couple with no children to get by on one income.
The flip side of this is that North Americans are slaves to money, credit spending and keeping up with technology wastes alot of our resources. I think most people can live comfortably and happy with a whole lot less money than we seem to think we "need" to make. To shorten these two points up, it is our own greed that is robbing from the education of our children.
I'm not saying your wrong obsidian, quite contrary you are very right in that this system is impossible to impose for the whole nation. I still would like to see much more parental involvement in the education of our children.
quote:
I think that home schooling would work in many ways. But I also feel that a home schooled kid misses out on A LOT. I was friends with a kid who left in the fourth grade to become home schooled. Since she was home schooled, she was not allowed to participate in any school related activities, such as National Honor Society, Varsity sports, or band. Since she was home schooled, she missed the PSAT test and general college prep given by the highschool. Since she was home schooled, she had no unbiased 'grades' to present to a university when applying. It sucks, she has had to work hard to recover from the detriments imposed by home schooling on her college career and social life.
I agree a child COULD miss out on alot through home schooling. If the parent does not recognize the necessity of these social interactions/activities. I have pointed out that there are ways around this in previous posts so I won't get to into this one. I do see your point though, it is a very real danger in the homeschooling system of education. One that an attentive, loving parent, who sees this problem will provide a solution to.
I hope I have not offended anyone with this post as I know I have made some strong statements. Please accept my apologies in advance if I have inadvertantly insulted anyone.
This is a topic close to my heart, I love children always have. I also know that Jesus loved children very much and calls us to look out for them. I call them "God's little favourites", and our children are suffering immensly in our current system. Something needs to be done!
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by obsidian, posted 12-17-2002 11:05 AM obsidian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by joz, posted 12-17-2002 5:12 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied
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Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 107 (27030)
12-17-2002 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by gene90
12-17-2002 2:00 PM


quote:
and I think, the UK)
Correct. The UK had the Dunblane massacre after which tighter gun controls were introduced by Parliament.
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 2:00 PM gene90 has not replied

joz
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 107 (27066)
12-17-2002 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by funkmasterfreaky
12-17-2002 2:03 PM


[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
quote:
Another problem I have which you touched on is the two working parents. I think alot of the time (not all) that this is selfishness on the part of the mother. Where she is more concerned about her career than her children and shirks her responsibility as a mother to further her own personal goals...
Funk don`t take this the wrong way but I`m about to rant at you for saying that....
[rant]WHAT!!! both my wife and I work, and its a rare month when we earn enough to go out for a meal or to watch a movie together, having kids cost a lot of money so now you are saying that we have to reduce our income at the same time that we incur all that extra expenditure......
Whats better Funk a child that has a mother that works or a child that isn`t born because it can`t be afforded?
I`m going with the first one....[/rant]
More importantly Funk it sounds bloody mysoginistic to say that the mother should to stay home, why not the father? But I`ll let Schraf tear you a new one for that.....
[This message has been edited by joz, 12-17-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 2:03 PM funkmasterfreaky has not replied

Replies to this message:
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gene90
Member (Idle past 3823 days)
Posts: 1610
Joined: 12-25-2000


Message 57 of 107 (27069)
12-17-2002 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by joz
12-17-2002 5:12 PM


Normally in our culture if one parent stays home it is the mother. However I know families where the father stays home to raise the children and the mother works. The system seems to work just fine.

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 Message 55 by joz, posted 12-17-2002 5:12 PM joz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 107 (27078)
12-17-2002 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by gene90
12-17-2002 5:29 PM


AAArrrrggghhhh *pulling own hair in frustration* lol
I should have known to phrase that in a more "socially acceptable" fashion. I don't believe it has to be the mother no. It can and I'm sure does work the other way around.
I must learn to state things much more clearly, it seems that as soon as a Christian says things along a certain line people suddenly jump to conclusions. I can see Schraf coming along screaming that I'm a woman hater, that I'm afraid of them like all other "fundies". This is not the case.
I happen to have a wonderful relationship with my mother, and it is because she chose to be home with us kids, she felt it necessary to pour herself out into her children. Let me tell you a mother who does this is a wonderful thing, forgive me if I see any other aproach as half-ass.
Because of my mothers decision sometimes life was financially rough in our house. We never went hungry though, God always provided everything we needed. (you could argue for luck, but that would be one ridiculous string of coincidence) This financial difficulty never made us unhappy kids, anyone who has ever met my family knows that there is something wonderful there.
What I was getting at in my original comment is that both parents have to make sacrafices to their own goals to instruct their children. I have seen on many occasions this responsibility shirked in order to pursue their own goals. I know alot of people who's fathers went so out of their way to provide a financially secure environment that they forgot about being a father. This causes so many countless problems down the road in the childs life/childs relationship with their father.
A secure home for a child is not a financial matter.
If I have stepped on your toes I'm sorry. I knew that once this got into parents responsibility I would be under fire. I just see such a need in children and youths today for more parental involvment in their lives. The family unit has come unglued, the school system is a shambles, and children are sufferring. Why not fix both problems in one shot?
------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 5:29 PM gene90 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Quetzal, posted 12-18-2002 2:40 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 59 of 107 (27135)
12-18-2002 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by funkmasterfreaky
12-17-2002 6:29 PM


And yet, Funk, you're taking a "general" idea that doesn't apply in specific cases, and essentially condemning people for not following your sense of "right". My wife and I both work, both have successful careers. However, outside of work, EVERYTHING we do revolves around the kids. I'm on the school board, my wife's a brownie troop leader. We both work with the kids every night (and sometimes every morning - I and my wife were up at 6 am this morning quizzing #1 daughter for a French test - at her request). We take 'em ice skating and skiing every weekend in the winter, and to the lake for swimming every weekend in the summer. We organize and transport for sleepovers, scouting trips, baking classes (!!!!), play dates, etc. One or the other of us has been at every single class presentation and event either kid has. We HAVE sacrificed - my wife and I go out alone maybe three times a year (outside of work-related events) - anniversary and birthday. According to you, we're shirking our responsibilities as parents. Oddly enough, my kids seem to be growing up into quite mature, responsible, reasonably happy and well-adjusted young people.
And they're damn smart and pretty well educated as well.
My point is that you can't apply general condemnations to specific cases. It's called the "fallacy of division". And it's insulting, to boot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-17-2002 6:29 PM funkmasterfreaky has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by funkmasterfreaky, posted 12-18-2002 3:33 AM Quetzal has not replied

Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6475 days)
Posts: 3085
From: Munich, Germany
Joined: 08-09-2002


Message 60 of 107 (27136)
12-18-2002 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by gene90
12-17-2002 2:00 PM


quote:
Originally posted by gene90:
quote:
Easy availability of guns in the US?
Mass school shootings have occured in EU countries that aren't so armed to the teeth. (Germany, and I think, the UK)

Germany had a mass school shooting in Erfurt this year. It was the first time that has happened. Gun availability is extremely restricted and getting a hunting license (which my father in law did) requires taking a really difficult and expensive test. However, overall gun violence in Germany is very low with perhaps between 100 to 200 gun crimes a year as opposed to the thousands in the U.S. However, I am not convinced that it is gun availability that is responsible for high gun crime levels in the U.S. since countries like Canada also have huge amounts of private ownership yet have only a small fraction of the U.S. gun crime rates. And it is not like people in the E.U. are somehow intrinsically peaceful in nature considering the last century of violence in Europe or the recent violence in the Balkans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by gene90, posted 12-17-2002 2:00 PM gene90 has replied

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funkmasterfreaky
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 107 (27138)
12-18-2002 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Quetzal
12-18-2002 2:40 AM


Quetzal,
I am so sorry to offend you, though I think you are an acception to the rule. That's awesome! Remember my view is limited to North America.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Quetzal, posted 12-18-2002 2:40 AM Quetzal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by nator, posted 12-18-2002 9:02 AM funkmasterfreaky has replied
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