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Author Topic:   Another Test for Intelligent Design Proponents
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 1 of 151 (271631)
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


Proponents of Intelligent Design hold that the patterns of nature strongly suggest the hand of an artificer, someone who has planned it all and made it happen.
To put their ability - to discern intelligence behind a pattern - to the test, I would like to present two figures and ask ID-ers a very straightforward question, namely to tell us of each figure whether or not they think it shows the hallmarks of design, perhaps accompanied by an explanation of their reasoning. First I would like to collect some responses, and then we can discuss them.
Here are the figures:
The appropriate forum would be 'Intelligent Design'

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2005 12:55 AM Parasomnium has replied
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 Message 13 by Faith, posted 12-23-2005 10:37 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 14 by Modulous, posted 12-24-2005 4:29 AM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 11:29 AM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 18 by joshua221, posted 12-24-2005 11:49 AM Parasomnium has not replied
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AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 151 (271644)
12-22-2005 9:05 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 3 of 151 (271689)
12-22-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


haha that's funny. cause both sort of happen. i mean. generally the one on the left gets a bit skewed but... it still happens. amazing crap.
*edit*
a comma found it's way into my elipses.
keyboards ~= intelligent design
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-22-2005 11:02 AM

This message is a reply to:
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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 4 of 151 (271828)
12-22-2005 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


I have an opinion but if I gave it I think it might derail your test.
I'll join in when (if!) you get any responses from our resident IDers.
Mind you, is there anyone but randman and buzsaw still around?

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2005 7:36 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 151 (271899)
12-23-2005 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


Hi Parsomnium. Is this meant as an addendum to the just closed buz/jar debate? How do we know when we're off topic here? Anyhow, regardless, it's a sensible and interesting approach. I see either of the above emerging either directly or indirectly by intelligent design, depending on the designer's plan and purpose. The smooth mountain/hill might have been pruposefully as such so as to fit the purposes of Mt. Zion at Jerusalem, the temple mount, whereas the other might have been purposely designed so as to prevent Eastern invaders from easy access to the sacred place. Then two the designer might have no specific purpose for either, leaving the eruption or whatever to randomly form, but within the limits of his perameters.
Biblically speaking, I believe it's in Isaiah someplace where it says God touches the mountains and they smoke. In Psalms 104 he made the valleys sink and the mountains rise up, relative to the great flood.
At Armageddon we are told that the Mount of Olives will separate/divide in two via earthquake leaving an East/West valley with a river flowing to the seas. Also the mother of all earthquakes will shake down the whole planet, cities, mountains, islands and all, according to Revelation 16, one of the verses near the end of the chapter.
AbE: removed "the possibility of" from sentence five.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 12-23-2005 11:04 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2005 7:36 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Wounded King, posted 12-23-2005 2:16 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 9 by Parasomnium, posted 12-23-2005 3:59 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 6 of 151 (271915)
12-23-2005 2:16 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
12-23-2005 12:55 AM


So that's a firm maybe?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 151 (271990)
12-23-2005 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Wounded King
12-23-2005 2:16 AM


Make that 'For Sure'!
Wounded King writes:
So that's a firm maybe?
Hi Wounded. You make a good point. I've edited out "the possibility of" from sentence five. I guess the reason I said it that way in the first place is that it cannot be imperically proven, but then, that could be said about a whole lot that is stated here as a given. Thanks.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 151 (271992)
12-23-2005 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by MangyTiger
12-22-2005 8:14 PM


What about......
MangyTiger writes:
Mind you, is there anyone but randman and buzsaw still around?
What about Faith, Phillip, Iano, Proflex and others? We're beginning to emerge upon the scene here, thanks to Admins improvement in PR and making it more compatible to all.
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 12-23-2005 10:45 AM

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

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 Message 4 by MangyTiger, posted 12-22-2005 8:14 PM MangyTiger has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 9 of 151 (272131)
12-23-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
12-23-2005 12:55 AM


ID-ers? Where are you?
Hello Buzsaw,
Thank you for your response.
You asked:
Is this meant as an addendum to the just closed buz/jar debate? How do we know when we're off topic here?
The answer is no, this is a topic of its own. I haven't even read the debate you mentioned. The goal of this thread is to get ID-ers to support their claim that they can distinguish between intelligently designed patterns and patterns of other origin.
I will not yet comment on your response, other than asking you to have another go at it, this time not thinking in terms of mountains. It's not that I am dismissing your idea of mountains, I'd simply like your input from a different perspective.
MangyTiger wrote:
Mind you, is there anyone but randman and buzsaw still around?
to which you answered:
What about Faith, Phillip, Iano, Proflex and others?
Indeed. I would appreciate some of their input too.

Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2005 12:55 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by MangyTiger, posted 12-23-2005 7:30 PM Parasomnium has not replied
 Message 12 by Buzsaw, posted 12-23-2005 10:26 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 10 of 151 (272221)
12-23-2005 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Parasomnium
12-23-2005 3:59 PM


Re: ID-ers? Where are you?
What about Faith, Phillip, Iano, Proflex and others?
Indeed. I would appreciate some of their input too.
I thought Faith had made it clear she is not a supporter of ID - she's a biblical literalist.
Philip is just... different
I haven't seen enough of the others in science discussions to know about them, but I did realise we should probably include Brad McFall - if only because I want to see you translate his reply so the rest of us can understand it!

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Parasomnium, posted 12-23-2005 3:59 PM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 151 (272232)
12-23-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


both
I'd have to say both because first off they appear on a computer screen, in color, and can be sent around the world via electronics. So yep, someone definitely made those images.
Answer your question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2005 7:36 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 151 (272300)
12-23-2005 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Parasomnium
12-23-2005 3:59 PM


Re: ID-ers? Where are you?
Parasomnium writes:
I will not yet comment on your response, other than asking you to have another go at it, this time not thinking in terms of mountains. It's not that I am dismissing your idea of mountains, I'd simply like your input from a different perspective.
Well then, I suppose the left image appears to be less chaotic than the other suggesting that some work had been applied to it in order to make it uniform, whereas the other may suggest randomness.

The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 151 (272302)
12-23-2005 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


I don't think this illustration could prove anything. For starters, what are they? Are they figures on paper -- or in cyber space? Are they intended to represent something in the physical world? How can I answer unless I know that? If the former I guess they'd both be by design although the second could be created by an inept artist or someone drawing with a blindfold on. In other words the second appears to be random, the first more intentional. But if they represent say a hill or mountain range, the first certainly looks most "designed" but neither represents any physical hills I'm aware of. If they represent something else in the physical world, then I guess it depends on what they represent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2005 7:36 AM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 14 of 151 (272368)
12-24-2005 4:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


The answer is that neither of them show definite signs of design, but either could be. The first is clearly part of a sine wave, and the second could be a natural event (landscape, lp grooves, readings from a photon detector) or could be a scribble.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2005 7:36 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-24-2005 12:23 PM Modulous has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 151 (272421)
12-24-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
12-22-2005 7:36 AM


Science would argue for figure 2, increase in entropy (chaos) in the nature of the physical universe over time. Patterns in nature suggest a designer because of the way everything fits together. The way carbon atoms have 4 electrons to bond, how everything is just amazingly PERFECT for human life on earth. A designer seems a sensible conclusion because of the lives we are born into, and what we see in nature, ideas and thoughts about a creator have been deduced not blindly, but through reason in places where they do not live like I. I do not see an increase in entropy over time, I see order in nature. I have asked my biology teacher about it, he told me that although we can see many examples of order here, on a cosmic scale we see increase in chaos. Would not evolution itself be example of Increase in order? Someone tell me the truth.
I don't really buy entropy.
I do believe in a God though. Creation.

Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in.
In my head, in my heart, in my soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Parasomnium, posted 12-22-2005 7:36 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
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