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Author | Topic: Take the state out of the schools!!!!! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Not in publically-funded schools. Religious private schools can teach and pseudoscience they want to. Tell me, how many of the hundreds of creation stories from around the world do you think those schools teach?
quote: Yes, but it wouldn't last long in the courts.
quote: It is also possible, say in parts of NYC, to have a majority of Hindus or Buddhists or Native Americans in the southwest, each with a non-Christian religion and each with their own different creation story. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-17-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: quote: Yes, considering that today more people in the US than ever believe in silliness like homeopathy, magnet therapy, and psychic's ability to talk to the dead. It is too much to ask people to think critically when uncritical thought is at an all time high among our population.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I shudder to think of what my life would have been like if I had been home schooled. See, I grew up in a emotionally abusive home. My parents did not like each other, and I don't think they liked their four children, either. I don't ever remember either of my parents reading a book to me. My mother would have resented like HELL having to teach me, and it would have meant that I wouldn't have had the relief of escaping that house five days a week. Neither one of my parents are good teachers. My mother was highly critical of everything I ever did and my father just yelled at me when I did anything wrong. (you should have seen him trying to teach me to drive a stickl shift. I sat with him in the car once and then taught myself from then on. The prospect of killing myself or having the transmission leap out of the hood of the car was less scary than having him in there with me)
quote: That is assuming that every parent is emotionally prepared to be a parent, let alone a teacher. My mother never figured out how I learned. I had to figure out how to not get yelled at.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: quote: Well, yes, we can hope, but it is naieve to think that most people who have kids do it with a whole lot of forethought. I think most people have kids because they expect to get married and have a family and they don't think about it much beyond that.
quote: quote: Gee, do you think that most Americans have a good enough grounding in math, including triganometry and calculus, to be able to teach it? I don't.
quote: ...and the schools that work are almost always the ones with the most money. Go figure.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Easy availability of guns in the US?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: The current system WOULD work just fine, as it has in the past, if we funded all schools well and there was more parental involvement across the board. We were shocked that Sputnik was launched, so there was a big thrust in science and mathematics instruction, and, lo and behold, critical thinking among the general population was up, and belief in the paranormal was down.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
quote: So, do you think that anyone should have the right to own a rocket launcher? How about a machine gun?
quote: Maybe, except that the consequences of failure to teach this lesson, combined with easy availability of guns results in tragedy. Thet is the price you pay for being in love with guns.
quote: Kids have ALWAYS sustained damage in the school system, in their neighborhoods, in their families and peer groups. That is nothing new.
quote: And that is why guns should be kept far, far away from troubled people, and should be difficult to get and have very strict laws about keeping them secure.
quote: But I made mental lists of people I hated or who were mean to me when I was in school, too, and I had my fantasies of making them suffer. I don't pretend to think that the easy availability of guns is the only reason things like this hppen, but you are wrong to think it is a new thing that kids can't cope or that they get picked on at school. I think that lack of parental and community responsibility and supervision contributes greatly to the problem. In the past, troubled kids brought knives to school. It's a lot harder to mow down dozens of people with a knife. Now they go buy a gun on the street or at a gun show.
quote: EXACTLY. You entertained these thoughts, as a lot of people did.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B] quote: quote: This is why we need to fund all public schools in each state equally instead of having school funding based upon property taxes. I think one state voted to do that this November...was it Florida?
quote: Agreed.
quote: Ah, classic mysogyny. How offensive. Who the hell are you to decide, for all women, what their "responsibilities" are? Since when is it SOLELY a mother's responsibility to be at home as the primary caregiver to children? Why are fathers not at all responible, in any way, for providing primary care to their children at home? Nobody blames fathers for being selfish for not staying at home with the children and having a career. Why is that? It couldn't be a double standard, would it? Wake up and move into the new millenium, Funk. Those old strict gender roles don't work any more now that women want to have a rewarding life outside the home, or stay at home with their children, IF THEY WISH. Having a career makes women more educated and more interesting people, therefore they are likely to be better mothers. Studies also show that children who spend time in good daycare are more interactive and stimulated and have better coping skills; iow are just fine. I had a stay at home mother an IT SUCKED. She didn't give me the time of day; most of the time I didn't interact with her at all and I played by myself and then got yelled at to clean up my mess. I had much more fun when I occasionally went to the babysitter's place and she actually played with me.
quote: I do agree with this.
quote: SOrry, you did offend.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Look, Funky, you were pretty damn clear when you stated that a mother is shirking her responsibilities when she works outside the home. Your blatant ommission of any mention of fathers shirking their responsibilities when they work outside the home was also crystal clear. I am not sure how you could have stated your belief that "working mothers are shirking their responsibilities" in a non-offensive way. And I didn't jump on you for it because you are a Christian. I would jump on anyone stating such...things. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-18-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Why do you think Quetzal's family is the exception to the rule? Based upon what?
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Well, that's been my experience with our friends with children, too, which is why I asked.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Why do you think Quetzal's family is the exception to the rule? Based upon what? quote: Gee, I have lots of married friends, both with and without kids, who are really happy. I was raised by a stay at home mother and I had a pretty lousy home life. My sister is a stay at home mom but never dealt with our abusive childhood, so she is raising neurotic, unhappy kids. A different sister and a brother both did the work to deal with their abusive childhoods, and both are raising wonderful, happy kids. Hmmm, maybe the reason kids are happy or not in their home life has little to do with if their mother "selfishly" stays home and much more to do with how much support and love they get from their parents, and how emotionally healthy and happy their parents are.
quote: I think the best thing to mend this situation would be; for women to get the same pay as men for doing the same work (passage of an ERA would be great). for companies and government to wake up to the fact that child care is a FAMILY issue, not "just" a women's issue. to raise the minimum wage to a living wage so even lower paying jobs wouldn't require both parents to work several jobs just to make ends meet. for the men in our culture to understand that June Cleaver never existed. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 12-19-2002] {Fixed a quote box - AM} [This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-19-2002]
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: I do not think that we should take all guns away. I think hunting rifles and the like are fine, for instance. But I do not think that handguns or other military type weapons are appropriate for civilian ownership. They are specifically designed to kill people. It would be great if knives became popular instead of guns. It's kind of difficult to do long-distance or drive-by knifings, or to accidentally stab someone two houses over. It is also a lot more difficult to mow down lots of people with a knife.
quote: I don't think the average citizen is very well armed now, anyway.
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B]Gun control almost seems like a good idea, except for the practical application. Who is allowed to have weapons?[/QUOTE] Those who pass psychological and gun safety tests, and who do not have any criminal records.
quote: Psychologists, law-enforcement professionals, gun experts, etc.
quote: I would suggest drawing the line at hunting firearms.
quote: Um, have you SEEN the gun death rate in the US compared to other industrialized nations? How many children do you want to see with their heads blown off before you stop saying "Oh, well, everybody dies anyway?" Damn. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2003]
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
[B] Originally posted by schrafinator: Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky: quote: So, do you think that anyone should have the right to own a rocket launcher? How about a machine gun? quote: Holy crap, you want it to be legal for the people like those in the Michigan Militia to own rocket launchers and machine guns? Tanks. What about tanks? Should people be allowed to own tanks with rocket launchers? Should my neighbor be allowed to own an anti-aircraft gun because he fears that the MIB will take him away? You are painting yourself into a silly scenario, funk.
quote: Maybe, except that the consequences of failure to teach this lesson, combined with easy availability of guns results in tragedy. Thet is the price you pay for being in love with guns. quote: I thought that you said that lots and lots of parents were neglecting their kids, and also that most teachers didn't care about their students and that the school system subjected a lot of kids to mental stress and abuse. First this was a huge problem, but now it is a small problem of "a few"? Which is it? The writers of our bill of rights could not have had any idea of the killing technology that would be developed in the future. Back when single-shot muskets and long rifles and bayonetts were the personal weapons of choice, and there was quite a lot of danger of our government becoming a lot like England's, it made sense for them to keep guns legal. I don't think that the writer's intent was for rocket launchers to be available to every citizen. I would actually have no problem with every family who wanted to own a musket or a long rifle to have one.
quote: Kids have ALWAYS sustained damage in the school system, in their neighborhoods, in their families and peer groups. That is nothing new. quote: Where is your evidence that it is getting worse? Could it be that more people are talking about it and assigning blame rather than the problem actually being worse? I never said I didn't care, so please stop putting words into my mouth. I am just suggesting that perhaps it is your preferred perception that it is getting worse.
quote: And that is why guns should be kept far, far away from troubled people, and should be difficult to get and have very strict laws about keeping them secure. quote: Very cute. You know exactly what I mean.
quote: But I made mental lists of people I hated or who were mean to me when I was in school, too, and I had my fantasies of making them suffer. I don't pretend to think that the easy availability of guns is the only reason things like this happen, but you are wrong to think it is a new thing that kids can't cope or that they get picked on at school. I think that lack of parental and community responsibility and supervision contributes greatly to the problem. In the past, troubled kids brought knives to school. It's a lot harder to mow down dozens of people with a knife. Now they go buy a gun on the street or at a gun show. quote: We would need to stop producing cheap firearms, and we would have to be serious about enforcement if we wanted to be serious about reducing gun death in the US. The NRA is evil. I do not say that lightly. When they hold rallys in Colorado two weeks after Columbine, and in Flint right after that grade-schooler killed his classmate, I think it is safe to say that they are sick MF-ers.
quote: EXACTLY. You entertained these thoughts, as a lot of people did. quote: No shit. But don't you think it is stupid to risk lots and lots of people getting KILLED because it is easy for any disturbed wacko to get a gun when he can't cope? Perhaps you are willing to trade those thousands of lives for your cozy happiness with a warm gun, but I am not. [This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2003]
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