Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,581 Year: 2,838/9,624 Month: 683/1,588 Week: 89/229 Day: 0/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 300 (273060)
12-26-2005 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Madfish
12-26-2005 10:28 PM


Before You Blame God............
Madfish writes:
Fillings? God spends his time with fillings while children starve and people die from war and disease?
You don't get if you don't ask, or if you ask in unbelief, et al. If you obey god, assuming the responsibilities of Christianity and ask in faith believing, you may receive. Are you personally praying for and doing something to aleviate the starving children of the world and the oppessed, et al? Then too, have you ever considered why some nations and cultures have so much of this starvation and suffering? Could it be that their ideologies have something to do with the poverty and suffering they are experiencing?

From "THE MONKEY'S VIEWPOINT: Man descended, the ornery cuss, but he surely did not descend from us!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 10:28 PM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 11:23 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 51 by ramoss, posted 12-27-2005 9:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 63 by nator, posted 12-29-2005 9:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 300 (273065)
12-26-2005 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
12-26-2005 10:53 PM


Re: Before You Blame God............
I prefer looking for real solutions to these problems.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 12-26-2005 10:53 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Buzsaw, posted 12-30-2005 10:57 PM Madfish has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 48 of 300 (273102)
12-27-2005 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
12-26-2005 10:40 PM


Re: prove it
very good post....it's amazing how many Christians have experiences miracles.....once a guy called for prayer, and he really seemed like he was dying. He had that deep rattle, and he was snowed in, and so we prayed for him, and about 10 minutes later the guy called kind of freaking out saying he had been completely healed and just couldn't believe it. I talked with the guy later after the weather cleared, and he said it all just cleared up in just a few minutes. Not the greatest miracle, but your story reminded me of it.
I've been sick and asked Christian friends and elders in church for prayer too and have gotten healed.
It's amazing, but you are right, I think, that it's no use trying to prove it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 12-26-2005 10:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Coragyps, posted 12-27-2005 9:54 AM randman has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 49 of 300 (273127)
12-27-2005 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Madfish
12-26-2005 10:41 PM


Absolute claims
If someone claims they have been visited by magical unicorns, are we allowed to disagree? Is the burden on us skeptics to prove that such a visitation never happened?
If we are not justified in asking for evidence for such a claim, how can we seperate the real from the imagined?
Yes, perfectly justified asking for evidence...which is different from flat out stating that the event didn't happen.
I read the first post of randman's as being opinion (ie, his belief) not a claim of fact, something I believe he has later confirmed
Using the above as an example, how can I prove that magical unicorns never visited? Does the fact that I can't prove they didn't, give any credibility to the claim? No, certainly not.
It feels wierd to be on randman's side here. If someone says 'Unicorns still visit us', I would take that as being a statement of belief, not a scientific claim. If someone retorts "No, they do not", that is an absolute statement. To make an absolute statement, one needs to be absolutely sure.
How can anyone be sure that unicorns do not still visit us?
It winds me up when 'creos' do it - "Evolution is impossible" - just as much as when 'evos' do it.
You mean, like the assertion that the news story is a miracle?
This strikes me as being odd. Am I the only one who read randman's statement as being a statement of belief, not an assertion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Madfish, posted 12-26-2005 10:41 PM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Madfish, posted 12-27-2005 5:21 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 12-27-2005 11:29 AM Modulous has replied
 Message 263 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 12:02 AM Modulous has not replied

Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 300 (273148)
12-27-2005 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Modulous
12-27-2005 2:56 AM


Re: Absolute claims
All randman said in his OP was, "MIracles still happen today."
I read that as a statement of fact. It may only be his belief, but I read it as him presenting that belief as a fact. If I made an error in evaluating that, I apologize.
quote:
If someone says 'Unicorns still visit us', I would take that as being a statement of belief, not a scientific claim. If someone retorts "No, they do not", that is an absolute statement. To make an absolute statement, one needs to be absolutely sure.
I think such a statement could be interpreted either way, but point taken.
I agree that absolute statements should be avoided when possible. I didn't mean to imply that one was warranted, but merely that the claim doesn't gain credibility because it can't be proven to be false.
quote:
This strikes me as being odd. Am I the only one who read randman's statement as being a statement of belief, not an assertion?
Again, I read "miracles still happen today" as randman matter of factly stating that miracles indeed happen today. If I misinterpreted it, I apologize and retract my statement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Modulous, posted 12-27-2005 2:56 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Modulous, posted 12-27-2005 11:29 AM Madfish has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 51 of 300 (273173)
12-27-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
12-26-2005 10:53 PM


Re: Before You Blame God............
Wow,
Ideology counts for miracles, huh?
So, all those devote Christians who got washed away in Katrine just didn't have the right ideology and faith.
This is particularly ironic in light of much of the message that is attributed to Jesus in the Gospels.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 12-26-2005 10:53 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-27-2005 8:52 PM ramoss has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 725 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 52 of 300 (273181)
12-27-2005 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by randman
12-27-2005 1:41 AM


Re: prove it
I've been sick and asked Christian friends and elders in church for prayer too and have gotten healed.
I've been sick and taken aspirin and plenty of fluids and have gotten healed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by randman, posted 12-27-2005 1:41 AM randman has not replied

LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4666 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 53 of 300 (273189)
12-27-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by randman
12-26-2005 7:31 PM


Re: prove it
...I don't treat the things of God via science, and learned that it is not always wise to try to use "proof" to let people know in terms of documentating miracles.
While I agree with arach's statement that miracles cannot be "proven", what's wrong with investigating them scientifically? Don't you think it would be a tremendous draw to Jesus if some miracles were highly docmumented? If enough evidence is provided for the "non-naturalness" of the occurance a majority of people would believe in its supernaturalness.
Didn't Jesus himself use miracles to draw in unbelievers?
John 5:36
"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me."
John 10:25
Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me..."
John 10:38
...believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."
I would think that if it is good enough for Jesus to use miracles as a lure, then it should be good enough for the Church today. Kind of surprising that they don't try harder to show off the miracles that do happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by randman, posted 12-26-2005 7:31 PM randman has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 54 of 300 (273216)
12-27-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Modulous
12-27-2005 2:56 AM


Re: Absolute claims
He asserted "MIracles still happen today."
A statement of fact. A statement of fact demands proof. Then he lists various other supposed miracles to reinforce this claim. Therefore, demand of proof is not only reasonable to be asked for but should be insisted upon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Modulous, posted 12-27-2005 2:56 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 12-27-2005 11:33 AM Theodoric has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 55 of 300 (273217)
12-27-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Madfish
12-27-2005 5:21 AM


Re: Absolute claims
Thank you, but no apology needed. Randman's OP was sparse and unspecific. I've been around forums long enough to learn the old troll's tactic to post an ambiguous statement knowing that people will take it one way and you can then play the 'I meant it the other way card' later on, thus 'winning' a victory.
I wouldn't dream of accusing randman of deliberately using such a tactic, but my trolldar sometimes picks these things up, even when done accidentally.
I don't think we've spoken before, so let me welcome you to EvC...it's oddly addictive, you have been warned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Madfish, posted 12-27-2005 5:21 AM Madfish has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Madfish, posted 12-27-2005 7:54 PM Modulous has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7799
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 56 of 300 (273218)
12-27-2005 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Theodoric
12-27-2005 11:29 AM


Re: Absolute claims
He asserted "MIracles still happen today."
A statement of fact.
If he posted, in the coffee house, a Bible quote and then said "Jesus is the son of God", would you consider that a statement of fact or faith? I would take it as a statement of faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Theodoric, posted 12-27-2005 11:29 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 12-27-2005 12:23 PM Modulous has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9053
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 57 of 300 (273226)
12-27-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Modulous
12-27-2005 11:33 AM


Re: Absolute claims
I guess I need to develop a better trolldar

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Modulous, posted 12-27-2005 11:33 AM Modulous has not replied

Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 300 (273341)
12-27-2005 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Modulous
12-27-2005 11:29 AM


Re: Absolute claims
I'm aware of the addictive nature of these forums. I lurked for over a year before registering a few weeks ago. Thanks for the welcome. I enjoy your posts and look forward to reading more.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Modulous, posted 12-27-2005 11:29 AM Modulous has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 59 of 300 (273355)
12-27-2005 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ramoss
12-27-2005 9:31 AM


Re: Before You Blame God............
yeah. i have a friend who's dad brags that his prayers sent katrina away from pensacola. funny how god spared the most sinful places in new orleans and only wiped out the really destitue ones.
i think katrina was a created storm made by the republicans to wipe away unsightlies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ramoss, posted 12-27-2005 9:31 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Coragyps, posted 12-27-2005 9:16 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 725 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 60 of 300 (273362)
12-27-2005 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by macaroniandcheese
12-27-2005 8:52 PM


Re: Before You Blame God............
i think katrina was a created storm made by the republicans to wipe away unsightlies.
Nope. Allah made it to hit Crawford, Texas, but he's got crappy aim from living in the desert so long.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-27-2005 8:52 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-27-2005 10:41 PM Coragyps has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024