Take the state out of the schools!!!!!

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Yes, considering that today more people in the US than ever believe in silliness like homeopathy, magnet therapy, and psychic's ability to talk to the dead.

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It is too much to ask people to think critically when uncritical thought is at an all time high among our population.

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This again points to the education system. People take what the read/hear as fact, because they have been taught to regurgitate information instead of process it.Thanx for solidifying my belief that the current system doesn't work. ------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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Why do you think we have kids shooting up schools,
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Easy availability of guns in the US?

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Sorry Schraf this seems like the cop out excuse to this problem. Personally I hate the idea of any sort of gun control. (this is a whole new thread) Don't you think an educated mass should be able to teach their children that it is wrong to shoot others!? I think these occurances have more to do with the social damage that kids are sustaining in the school system.
I personally did not have a good go of the public school system, when I saw the Columbine shooting on the news it was not a shock. It saddened me greatly that these kids had not been able to cope with their situation and had destroyed their own lives in anger. However it was an event that was becoming inevitable, you would not believe the amount of kids in our systems who have a "hit list" of peers and teachers in their schools. I don't think this problem is anywhere near over, though the footage from Columbine may be deterring others with the same ideas.
I know I entertained this very thought many times growing up in the public school system, I just eventually chose drug abuse instead.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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. Why? Because it requires that at least one parent stays home and is motivated enough to teach a child. The rich... well they can just send their kids off to private school. For the poor... a lot of inner city families cannot afford to do this and single moms cannot afford to do this. It is unrealistic to adopt a policy of home schooling for America. I think those parents that want it, well we should let them know they can... but otherwise stay out of it.

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Obsidian,You make some excellent points here that I was wondering when they were going to come up. Anothe problem I see with completely removing the current system is coming up with a curriculum.Part of the problem with our current system has been pointed out, the economics that gets involved. You stand a much better chance to get a good education if you are born into a rich family and live in a wealthy neighbourhood. This is not how our wonderful freedom is supposed to work, is it? Otherwise it is still as it has always been in any other "class" oriented society. The rich nobles get the best education and remain the rich nobles, while the poor peasants get a shoddy hasty education and remain poor peasants.I also understand the problem of single parent families, completely switching to a home system would be impossible for such people. First off any man who abandons his children and wife (girlfriend, whatever) alone to fend for themselves is no man at all. (I understand that their are other unavoidable reasons for single parenthood) This is another example of how TB had the better idea, I am clinging stubbornly to my position for arguments sake. Also another example of how the church is not doing it's job in caring for the widowed. So with a functional church and men of integrity this would be an easily licked problem.Another problem I have which you touched on is the two working parents. I think alot of the time (not all) that this is selfishness on the part of the mother. Where she is more concerned about her career than her children and shirks her responsibility as a mother to further her own personal goals. I admit there are situations were it is necessary for both parents to work, some employers in the service industry especially offer pathetic wages, that make it difficult for a couple with no children to get by on one income.
The flip side of this is that North Americans are slaves to money, credit spending and keeping up with technology wastes alot of our resources. I think most people can live comfortably and happy with a whole lot less money than we seem to think we "need" to make. To shorten these two points up, it is our own greed that is robbing from the education of our children.I'm not saying your wrong obsidian, quite contrary you are very right in that this system is impossible to impose for the whole nation. I still would like to see much more parental involvement in the education of our children.

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I think that home schooling would work in many ways. But I also feel that a home schooled kid misses out on A LOT. I was friends with a kid who left in the fourth grade to become home schooled. Since she was home schooled, she was not allowed to participate in any school related activities, such as National Honor Society, Varsity sports, or band. Since she was home schooled, she missed the PSAT test and general college prep given by the highschool. Since she was home schooled, she had no unbiased 'grades' to present to a university when applying. It sucks, she has had to work hard to recover from the detriments imposed by home schooling on her college career and social life.

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I agree a child COULD miss out on alot through home schooling. If the parent does not recognize the necessity of these social interactions/activities. I have pointed out that there are ways around this in previous posts so I won't get to into this one. I do see your point though, it is a very real danger in the homeschooling system of education. One that an attentive, loving parent, who sees this problem will provide a solution to.I hope I have not offended anyone with this post as I know I have made some strong statements. Please accept my apologies in advance if I have inadvertantly insulted anyone.This is a topic close to my heart, I love children always have. I also know that Jesus loved children very much and calls us to look out for them. I call them "God's little favourites", and our children are suffering immensly in our current system. Something needs to be done!------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

AAArrrrggghhhh *pulling own hair in frustration* lolI should have known to phrase that in a more "socially acceptable" fashion. I don't believe it has to be the mother no. It can and I'm sure does work the other way around.I must learn to state things much more clearly, it seems that as soon as a Christian says things along a certain line people suddenly jump to conclusions. I can see Schraf coming along screaming that I'm a woman hater, that I'm afraid of them like all other "fundies". This is not the case.I happen to have a wonderful relationship with my mother, and it is because she chose to be home with us kids, she felt it necessary to pour herself out into her children. Let me tell you a mother who does this is a wonderful thing, forgive me if I see any other aproach as half-ass.Because of my mothers decision sometimes life was financially rough in our house. We never went hungry though, God always provided everything we needed. (you could argue for luck, but that would be one ridiculous string of coincidence) This financial difficulty never made us unhappy kids, anyone who has ever met my family knows that there is something wonderful there.What I was getting at in my original comment is that both parents have to make sacrafices to their own goals to instruct their children. I have seen on many occasions this responsibility shirked in order to pursue their own goals. I know alot of people who's fathers went so out of their way to provide a financially secure environment that they forgot about being a father. This causes so many countless problems down the road in the childs life/childs relationship with their father.A secure home for a child is not a financial matter.If I have stepped on your toes I'm sorry. I knew that once this got into parents responsibility I would be under fire. I just see such a need in children and youths today for more parental involvment in their lives. The family unit has come unglued, the school system is a shambles, and children are sufferring. Why not fix both problems in one shot?------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

Quetzal,I am so sorry to offend you, though I think you are an acception to the rule. That's awesome! Remember my view is limited to North America.

Based on observation. It's seems very rare that I run into people who are/were happy with their family life. There is so much anger towards parents, and hatred to their own families. I have met more people who were damaged by the school system than who had a positive experience from it. There is a definate problem here. This is not a religious pov. Even before I decided to walk with the Lord about 4 months ago, this was an issue that I spent alot of thought on. My solution hasn't changed, other than that I personally would say that God is the best "glue" to mend this broken situation. My views on parental involvement, and home education did not stem from my religious belief. I had formed these views prior to my committment to God.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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There is so much anger towards parents, and hatred to their own families. I have met more people who were damaged by the school system than who had a positive experience from it. There is a definate problem here. This is not a religious pov. Even before I decided to walk with the Lord about 4 months ago, this was an issue that I spent alot of thought on. My solution hasn't changed, other than that I personally would say that God is the best "glue" to mend this broken situation. My views on parental involvement, and home education did not stem from my religious belief. I had formed these views prior to my committment to God.

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Well I guess things are a little different here. For one it is easier for a woman/minority to get a job/education/gov't grants for buisness/tax free time to start their business than anyone else here in Canada. It's a case of trying to legislate behaviour/mentality changes, and as far as I'm concerned it doesn't work.Legislation has gone so far as to say that you have to have a certain amount of women and minorities in your employ. Well try being the employer here, what if the best person for the job is not a woman or minority and you can't hire them because you have to have x-amount of women employed for the size of your company.The problem with Canada has tried to do is that all they did was tip the scale the other way.This said I am not adverse to EQUAL pay/opportunity for everyone, the problem is that when you try to change this it just slants the other way. Another point to this is that there are plenty of situations where two white males hold the same job and do not get equal pay. Rightly so, in the case that one employee is better at the job than the other and recieves higher pay.Employer should take Collosians 4:1 to heart.

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1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

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I agree with the fact that child care is a family issue, I thought that was what I was getting at. Maybe families should quit thinking that child care has anything to do with companies or governments and quit blaming them. Realizing themselves that this is a family issue. Again I agree, following the advice in Collosians would help with this. Again though like any system in history no matter how wonderful it looks in theory and on paper will be corrupted by the same thing GREEDWho is June Cleaver?------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 12-20-2002]

Would I take this stance if I didn't think it was feasible? What do you care what I teach my children so long as they grow up to work hard and can think? I may not be able to do a perfect job but no teacher can. One thing I can guarantee is that I could do a much better job than the system I see provided. Much better job.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

Gun control almost seems like a good idea, except for the practical application. Who is allowed to have weapons? Who judges the capability of a person to own a gun? Ultimately I'm asking where do you draw the lines, and how far do you go to enforce them?One of the problems I have with what Canada is doing with gun control is that, they are giving the police the freedom to search for guns in your home without a warrant! Now this is absolutely unacceptable! Maybe if (as my dad said over Christmas time) we had a justice system, instead of a legal system, I could deal with this. However it seems that justice is something we only stumble across occasionally, in the system we have in place.How far can you go to enforce this regulation? How many freedoms would you give up?10 out of 10 people die anyway, I don't think you'll be any safer without a gun.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

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Sorry Schraf this seems like the cop out excuse to this problem. Personally I hate the idea of any sort of gun control. (this is a whole new thread)

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I'd rather these were in the hands of civilians instead of under the command of governments who are motivated by big business.

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Don't you think an educated mass should be able to teach their children that it is wrong to shoot others!?

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So because of a few neglecting parents you will take away freedoms and any hope of self defence from the whole population?

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I think these occurances have more to do with the social damage that kids are sustaining in the school system.

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I didn't say that it was new, just that it's getting worse. So it's been going on forever anyways so who cares!? Is that what you're getting at.

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I personally did not have a good go of the public school system, when I saw the Columbine shooting on the news it was not a shock. It saddened me greatly that these kids had not been able to cope with their situation and had destroyed their own lives in anger.

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So who isn't troubled?

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However it was an event that was becoming inevitable, you would not believe the amount of kids in our systems who have a "hit list" of peers and teachers in their schools.

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Kids don't seem to have problems getting drugs on the street, even though there is legislation against them. What makes you think guns will be any different? Hiding the problem away underneath some legislation does not solve anything.

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I don't think this problem is anywhere near over, though the footage from Columbine may be deterring others with the same ideas.
I know I entertained this very thought many times growing up in the public school system, I just eventually chose drug abuse instead.

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Why are people being driven to these thoughts, isn't this the problem in the first place? Has nothing to do with wether or not you have access to a gun.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 01-02-2003]

Time and again I have stated that if you are in over your head on a subject then get some help. I am glad you are a good teacher. You'll notice that in my criticism of teachers I made sure to mention that NOT ALL teachers were bad teachers. You're right you can't force feed knowledge to anyone, however this is what the education system attempts to do. If they aren't interested it's the teachers job to make it interesting. Some children cannot handle this classroom style teaching. I know a mother who homeschools and one of her kids has to move and fidget in order to concentrate. As soon as this child is forced to sit still and look straight ahead she cannot retain any information. Each person is different and learns different, how can a national system ever meet the needs of the individual? Good. Teachers teaching a public school have to be impartial to what they teach. A parent raising a child does not have to be. I don't see a need for religious studies anyway, I never had religious studies in shcool. I'd only teach one creation, however I would give parallels, here's what I believe, here is what others believe. This is why I believe what I do and why they believe what they do. Children homeshcooled or public seem to have no difficulty casting off their parents beliefs. They seem to have a much more difficult time though, casting off the belief systems (or lack of) that they are bombarded with everyday. And they say Christians are paranoid, I would argue from this thread that it is critics that get edgy about this whole thing. 25 years in university doesn't qualify you teach. Some people have a heart and a temperment to teach and others do not. Again, knowledge is not the equivalent of wisdom. A person may be knowlegeble of the subject but it does not necessarily follow that knowledge of a subject is qualification to teach it. If I send them to public school I WILL be depriving them. At home I can see the strengths and weaknesses of my child clearly. I can encourage these strengths and work on these weaknesses, ultimately giving them a better chance in life.If my child were to want to know about other religions, faiths, or philosophies I would be glad to study these with them as well.Too many people lack the encouragement and instruction in those things that they are gifted towards. Too often music/arts (eg.) are considered unimportant or useless. Well to the person who is geared to these things there is nothing further from the truth.[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 01-03-2003]

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Gun control almost seems like a good idea, except for the practical application. Who is allowed to have weapons?

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Anyone who wants a gun bad enough can fake it through psychological and gun safety tests. How recent of a criminal record, and what type of offences would eliminate a person from owning a gun?

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Who judges the capability of a person to own a gun?

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A psychologist is easily fooled, law-enforcement can be easily fooled or paid off, and what is a gun experts role in deciding who can own a gun?

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Ultimately I'm asking where do you draw the lines, and how far do you go to enforce them?

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Hunting rifles kill people just like any other gun. A shotgun is often a weapon of choice for a criminal because of the spread shot, acts somewhat like an automatic weapon. If you ban shotguns bird hunters would be some ticked at you.

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One of the problems I have with what Canada is doing with gun control is that, they are giving the police the freedom to search for guns in your home without a warrant! Now this is absolutely unacceptable! Maybe if (as my dad said over Christmas time) we had a justice system, instead of a legal system, I could deal with this. However it seems that justice is something we only stumble across occasionally, in the system we have in place.

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How far can you go to enforce this regulation? How many freedoms would you give up?

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10 out of 10 people die anyway, I don't think you'll be any safer without a gun.

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If you're bringing up statistics please provide them in your post I'd appreciate it.I can't stand to see children harmed in any way, it boils my blood to a point that I can hardly control. Crime against children is the most dispicable type of offence one could commit.People with hunting rifles are just as capable of killing children as people with automatic weapons. You can make it more difficult to get guns but you can't stop people from getting them and using them on other humans. There will always be a way to get your hands on a gun if you want them. With gun control you make the criminal even more dangerous, and the law abiding citizen even more defenseless.[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 01-05-2003]

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Sorry Schraf this seems like the cop out excuse to this problem. Personally I hate the idea of any sort of gun control. (this is a whole new thread)

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I'd rather these were in the hands of civilians instead of under the command of governments who are motivated by big business.

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Your scenario seems even sillier to me. How many citizens do you think can actually afford a rocket launcher and a tank? Your neighbour would have to be some rich to buy himself anti-aircraft guns.

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Don't you think an educated mass should be able to teach their children that it is wrong to shoot others!?

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So because of a few neglecting parents you will take away freedoms and any hope of self defence from the whole population?

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You are right I did contradict myself there, because your idea of putting a control on guns so angers me, I wasn't thinking. Wasn't gun control one of Hitler's first courses of action in controlling the people. Yes the educations system and the family unit are flawed and disfunctional. It is a large problem not the problem of a few.You can make all the legislation you want and you won't change one thing. Legislation does not solve problems, laws do not change peoples actions. It's already illegal to shoot people, alot of good that law does in stopping people from killing others.Got to go pick up pizza finish this post later.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.

Weapons are weapons, people who want to kill will kill. If all they had was a musket that's what they'd use.

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I think these occurances have more to do with the social damage that kids are sustaining in the school system.

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I didn't say that it was new, just that it's getting worse. So it's been going on forever anyways so who cares!? Is that what you're getting at.

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I guess I don't know that things are getting worse it's maybe just more public now. I believe it's getting worse from discussions with older people, from comparing stories and experinces with them.Schraff I wasn't putting words in your mouth I was asking a question.

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I personally did not have a good go of the public school system, when I saw the Columbine shooting on the news it was not a shock. It saddened me greatly that these kids had not been able to cope with their situation and had destroyed their own lives in anger.

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So who isn't troubled?

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No I didn't know exactly what you meant or I wouldn't have said anything. It seems to me that everyone is troubled. Any person is capable of losing control, not just a select few. Quite often it seems that "very well adjusted" people commit the most vicious and dispicable crimes of anyone.

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However it was an event that was becoming inevitable, you would not believe the amount of kids in our systems who have a "hit list" of peers and teachers in their schools.

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Kids don't seem to have problems getting drugs on the street, even though there is legislation against them. What makes you think guns will be any different? Hiding the problem away underneath some legislation does not solve anything.

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I don't know anything about the NRA, probably because I'm not from the states. I don't give a rats ass about the states we've got enough problems here.Strict enforcement meaning what? I hope that doesn't mean forming a police state, giving the police unlimited power.

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I don't think this problem is anywhere near over, though the footage from Columbine may be deterring others with the same ideas.
I know I entertained this very thought many times growing up in the public school system, I just eventually chose drug abuse instead.

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Why are people being driven to these thoughts, isn't this the problem in the first place? Has nothing to do with wether or not you have access to a gun.

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I can see by your language in this post that you take this problem seriously. Which is a good thing, I just don't think that more laws will change anything. A "disturbed wacko" is going to find a means to kill no matter what laws are in place.Schraf I know you think I'm unintelligent and medeival, but these problems with kids and guns make me so sad I can't stand it. I can't stand to see kids in such distress that they resort to the kinds of things like the columbine shooting. You know when I saw the news reports on that particular incident, I felt more for the kids with the guns than those who were victims and bystanders. Not to say that I did not grieve for those young people who lost their lives in that tragic event. There are so many in the last few generations who are so lost and hurting. (not saying that previous generations have not been hurt) Something needs to be done this is why I started this thread saying we need to be closer to our kids and know what is going on. We need to play bigger roles in their lives, even if it is at the expense of our time, and our own carreers/goals. I know that I would never want to go through that time in my life ever again. Being a young person is so incredibly difficult, with so many pressures and expectations. The world is so big and scary, so heavy and oppressive on your shoulders, that it seems impossible to cope. We as adults need to remember how hard it was growing up and come alongside our young people and, uplift and encourage them. We need to do more than we are doing, and we need to make changes to ease the pressure they are feeling.

No it's not what I would like. You seem to be a fairly angry person. Did you read the rest of the thread before responding to message 7?It's not some conspiracy against evolution. I'm not afraid of evolution. I just think that parents should put more of their own time into the education of their children.For the sake of argument I took a solid stance for home education, however I know that this is not always a possiblilty.------------------
Saved by an incredible Grace.