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Author Topic:   Another Test for Intelligent Design Proponents
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 91 of 151 (277133)
01-08-2006 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by joshua221
01-08-2006 2:02 AM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
prophex writes:
I would bet you that the majority of scientists like what they do, and sacrifice nothing to earn a large income to study physics.
As Ben hints, physics is not a field from which one earns much money. My own field (computer science) is filled with former physics majors who, having grown tired of living just above poverty level, use the math and computer skills they've gained from physics to finally make a good living.
--Percy

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 151 (277144)
01-08-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Parasomnium
01-08-2006 5:03 AM


Re: My final comment to Prophex on this
quote:
In any case, to conclude our exchange, the important thing is not that we disagree about whether or not there is an Intelligent Designer, but that I pointed out to you the fact that you and the intelligent design movement are in disagreement, apparently, on what can be said openly about the nature of the intelligent designer.
You are welcome to comment, but I will leave it at this.
Agreed.

"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 151 (277147)
01-08-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by nator
01-08-2006 8:46 AM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
quote:
Spoken like a kid who is still in high school and has never had to work for a living, or even work very hard academically.
Take it from me, the wife of a very bright man who just defended his PhD.
There are many, many sacrifices.
Profound, painful ones that you are not grown up enough to understand, apparently.
Oh, and what do you consider a "large income"?
We live in America, these sacrifices are those of the rich man, pains that when looked upon by those who have experienced much worse, are small and insignificant.

"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 94 of 151 (277153)
01-08-2006 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by joshua221
01-08-2006 2:02 AM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
Show me statistics that show that the majority of scientists are not living well, and actually have to time to think about DNA extractions.
The majority of science, something like 80%, goes on at academic institutions rather than private industry. The private industry doesn't actually do all that much research. The federal government does a little on its own but largely, just relies on the institutions to do it.
A researcher working in academia would be lucky, I think, to pull down 40k a year, depending on their field and the institution in question. That would be after a decade of grueling poverty as an undergrad, grad, and post-doc, and probably another decade or two of near-poverty working towards tenure as an assistant or associate professor, working over 60 hours a week, every week.
You really have no idea what it's like to work in the sciences, do you? The only thing worse is being married to someone working in the sciences.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 151 (277154)
01-08-2006 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Ben!
01-08-2006 11:39 AM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
lol

"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 151 (277158)
01-08-2006 12:40 PM


Fact is, as much as there is room to complain about money, it's a heck of a lot better than most of the world's population.
Also, when I said physics, I meant to say physis. Which is greek for the physical world. To clear that up with percy, and stuff.

"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 97 of 151 (277162)
01-08-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by joshua221
01-08-2006 12:40 PM


Fact is, as much as there is room to complain about money, it's a heck of a lot better than most of the world's population.
Sure. But scienists as a whole aren't generally known for being a leisure class.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 151 (277224)
01-08-2006 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by joshua221
01-08-2006 12:27 PM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
quote:
We live in America, these sacrifices are those of the rich man, pains that when looked upon by those who have experienced much worse, are small and insignificant.
...writes the American kid who owns a computer (that his parents probably paid for), musical instruments (that his parents probably paid for), and is considering a college degree (that his parents will likely pay for) in Philosophy.
Do you look good in green, because you'll probably want to get fitted for your Starbucks uniform now.
It'll save you the trouble after graduation with that Philosophy degree.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-08-2006 04:47 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by joshua221, posted 01-08-2006 8:49 PM nator has replied
 Message 140 by inkorrekt, posted 02-11-2006 6:15 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 99 of 151 (277226)
01-08-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
01-08-2006 12:36 PM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
quote:
You really have no idea what it's like to work in the sciences, do you? The only thing worse is being married to someone working in the sciences.
Amen, brother.

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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 151 (277322)
01-08-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
01-08-2006 4:45 PM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
I wasn't the one complaining was I?
Or pretending to have hardships that are unable to be handled?
So your funny remarks had no basis.

"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 4:45 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:46 PM joshua221 has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 101 of 151 (277337)
01-08-2006 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by joshua221
01-08-2006 8:49 PM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
quote:
I wasn't the one complaining was I?
Or pretending to have hardships that are unable to be handled?
So your funny remarks had no basis.
But you are the one insulting the life of a scientist from a place of utter ignorance.
You are the one saying that scientists don't work hard yet earn large incomes.
Hey, if you get a PhD in Philosophy and become an academic, do I get to criticize you for doing nothing of real value and getting rich?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by joshua221, posted 01-08-2006 8:49 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by joshua221, posted 01-09-2006 12:29 AM nator has replied
 Message 103 by joshua221, posted 01-09-2006 12:30 AM nator has not replied
 Message 104 by arachnophilia, posted 01-09-2006 12:45 AM nator has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 151 (277383)
01-09-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
01-08-2006 9:46 PM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
You aren't seeing it on a worldly scale.
What you say is difficult, really is nothing. I pointed out this semi-ignorance in your thinking, and I recieved personal criticisms.
quote:
But you are the one insulting the life of a scientist from a place of utter ignorance.
Ignorance is the inability to see truth. This is you right now.
Saying that to be a scientist is hard, and takes sacrifice is ignorance, and a dishonor to anyone who has ever starved, or had to work harder, without anything in return. Which I assure you there is more than in the science community.
I'm sorry, but I can see past your world of experience in college, and "real-world" science and academia. I see poverty, and humanity as a whole, you are not seeing that, well not that you aren't capable of seeing that, but that your lifestyle when criticised sort of hinders your ability to see what life really is, for most of the world's population. I may be young, but I know that in this instance, you are the ignorant one, and not I.
We sort of made a big deal out of it, wanted the last word.

"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:46 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 151 (277385)
01-09-2006 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
01-08-2006 9:46 PM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
Leave your preconcieved, and concieved notions at the door.

"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 104 of 151 (277387)
01-09-2006 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nator
01-08-2006 9:46 PM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
Hey, if you get a PhD in Philosophy and become an academic, do I get to criticize you for doing nothing of real value and getting rich?
well, that depends what your phd is in.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 105 of 151 (277397)
01-09-2006 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by joshua221
01-09-2006 12:29 AM


Re: b=b==b=bb=b
Saying that to be a scientist is hard, and takes sacrifice is ignorance, and a dishonor to anyone who has ever starved, or had to work harder, without anything in return.
Um, scientists often do starve, to some degree, and they really get nothing in return except pride in their own accomplishments. And nobody who's really poor works for "nothing in return"; they don't have the luxury of volunteering. If it doesn't pay, they can't afford to do it.
So it's not at all clear what you're talking about. Or rather, it's not clear what you're expecting us to understand from your staments aside from a furious backpedal from statements that were proven to you to be false.

This message is a reply to:
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