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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 318 (280466)
01-21-2006 6:33 AM


The idea here is to study what evolution necessarily includes. I've identified several corollary concepts. If you accept TOE, you must also accept the following:
1. materialism
2. determinism
3. atheism
4. and lastly, of course, nihilism.
I'm interested in #1 and #2 primarily. My point about the connection between atheism and evolution has been discussed recently, and at length, on another thread ("Nature and the Fall of Man").
Materialism: One cannot, I think, be a dualist and accept TOE. It's rather difficult to imagine a type of reality called "mentality" evolving out of another type of reality called "physicality." It must be all physical. But if it's all physical, then it's all a matter of automatic responses to stimuli, and that's a deterministic concept.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 05:34 AM
This message has been edited by AdminPD, 01-21-2006 07:57 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-21-2006 9:04 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2006 9:29 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 11 by Ben!, posted 01-21-2006 10:01 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 13 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-21-2006 10:10 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 17 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2006 10:25 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 20 by nwr, posted 01-21-2006 10:41 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 21 by jar, posted 01-21-2006 10:43 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 49 by joshua221, posted 01-21-2006 6:26 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 222 by Jon, posted 01-27-2006 3:28 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 318 (280486)
01-21-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Funkaloyd
01-21-2006 9:04 AM


I think it comes down to whether one is inclined to either believe in things for which we do not have evidence (faith), maintain an open mind on such things (agnosticism), or disbelieve in them
I'm talking about what we do have evidence for--evolution--and I am suggesting that not only does evolution loosely fit the other ideas, but that evolution dictates them logically.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:27 AM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-21-2006 9:04 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 318 (280489)
01-21-2006 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by PaulK
01-21-2006 9:29 AM


The Catholic Church accepts evolutionary theory but still holds that the human soul originated with God
I'm just wondering how the Catholic Church is going to explain the apparent abitrary cruelty of nature and reconcile that with the goodness of God.
Evolution is cruel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2006 9:29 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by iano, posted 01-21-2006 9:56 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 01-21-2006 9:58 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 318 (280496)
01-21-2006 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brad McFall
01-21-2006 9:37 AM


Re: which ISM??
I think that there MUST be some (kind) of determinism in TOE
Yes. Physical events are deterministic in the sense that they happen automatically, like water running downhill. The water does not make a decision to run downhill. This is true of ALL physical events, unless there is a mind around to decide something. But if the brain is all physical, then all our thoughts are caused physically.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:49 AM
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-21-2006 08:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by iano, posted 01-21-2006 10:06 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 318 (280506)
01-21-2006 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Ben!
01-21-2006 10:01 AM


Re: ONLY scientific results as "true"
You can study evolution without believing science is the avenue, or the only avenue, to truth.
I'm not talking about just science. I'm talking about logic.
My view would be that evolution logically excludes the supernatural, or at any rate it excludes the idea of God in the conventional sense.
This doesn't make sense to me. Nihilism is a subjective opinion
There's nothing subjective about nihilism, unless you want to say that all thoughts are subjective. Nihilism is the view that life has no objective meaning or purpose. Nihilism, as I am using the term, is not a negative comment. It is neither negative nor positive. If evolution is true, then it follows that life has no objective meaning or purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Ben!, posted 01-21-2006 10:01 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Ben!, posted 01-21-2006 10:48 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 28 by nwr, posted 01-21-2006 10:50 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 318 (280511)
01-21-2006 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
01-21-2006 9:56 AM


The Fall....
evolution and the Fall (which includes the Fall of nature) would seem to be irreconcilable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by iano, posted 01-21-2006 9:56 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by iano, posted 01-21-2006 12:20 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 318 (280512)
01-21-2006 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by iano
01-21-2006 10:06 AM


Re: which ISM??
In which case we should all go home.
We could do that, but it's more interesting to keep arguing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by iano, posted 01-21-2006 10:06 AM iano has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 318 (280517)
01-21-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Modulous
01-21-2006 10:25 AM


Re: Disagreed
So you don't accept that your house has a Domovoi?
I have no idea what you are talking about.
A: So you don't accept quantum indeterminacy?
If you are saying that quantum events are uncaused, I disagree. We just don't know what the cause is.
A: So you don't accept that Eos has rosy fingers?
I have no idea what you are talking about.
A: So you don't think that there is value in existence, and that morality is thus meaningless?
In an objective sense, no I don't think that there is value in existence, and in an objective sense, I do think that morality is meaningless. Morals are, as Holmes has said, a matter of personal taste, like preferring one color to another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2006 10:25 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2006 10:50 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 318 (280518)
01-21-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
01-21-2006 10:43 AM


Are you willing to examine the evidence that seems to indicate that your assumption is wrong?
Sure, I'm willing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 01-21-2006 10:43 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 01-21-2006 10:49 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 318 (280521)
01-21-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by nwr
01-21-2006 10:41 AM


Re: What is robin on about?
Surely one could believe in a supernatural world without necessarily believing in an immaterial soul.
"Supernatural" means incorporeal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by nwr, posted 01-21-2006 10:41 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by lfen, posted 01-21-2006 6:14 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 48 by nwr, posted 01-21-2006 6:20 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 318 (280525)
01-21-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
01-21-2006 10:49 AM


Okay, then let's start with th fact that I am a Christian and yet also find the TOE to be the best explanation available for the life we see about us and that which came before.
Is that sufficient eveidence to falsify your asserton?
No, it just means that you are trying to reconcile two beliefs which cannot logically be reconciled.
I'm not saying that somebody can't believe that both Christianity and evolution are both true. People believe all sorts of things. But it's not a logical belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 01-21-2006 10:49 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-21-2006 10:59 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 318 (280527)
01-21-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Modulous
01-21-2006 10:50 AM


Re: Disagreed
Domovoi are not material entities...I provided a link for you to help.
I know, but what's your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2006 10:50 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 01-21-2006 11:27 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 318 (280529)
01-21-2006 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
01-21-2006 10:59 AM


Well, in that case, the fact that I can provide thousands and thousands of names of Christians who believe both Christianity and also that the TOE is a valid explanation of life as we can see it will not be accepted as evidence falsifying your assertion?
No, that is not evidence. You are all wrong.
It is evidence, however, of the popularity of this illogical belief.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-21-2006 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 01-21-2006 11:13 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 318 (280530)
01-21-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by macaroniandcheese
01-21-2006 10:10 AM


Re: oh must i?
why is your god a liar?
My god is not a liar. The God I don't believe in is a good God and always tells the truth.
Let's have some religious tolerance here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-21-2006 10:10 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by mark24, posted 01-21-2006 11:12 AM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 318 (280531)
01-21-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Ben!
01-21-2006 10:48 AM


Re: ONLY scientific results as "true"
I'm not sure what to do except to reiterate my argument. The argument is that meaning is created by mind. It cannot be objective or subjective, except as created so by a mind.
Then meaning has no place in this discussion. Rationality and logic does not necessitate that meaning be objective (applying to everything / all people) or subjective (applying to only one person). Meaning is created by a person. If you are that person, the meaning is objective. And there is no way to objectively see that it is not objective. If you are not that person, then that person's meaning looks subjective.
In other words, the "objectivity" of meaning is observer-dependent. There are observers who have objective meaning. Just because you view it as subjective doesn't make it subjective. Just because it is only one person holding that meaning doesn't make it subjective.
In other words, there's nothing that can make meaning "objectively subjective". Everybody judging meaning is an observer, and has meaning attached with their viewpoint. There is no observer-dependent position on meaning. Meaning is only subjective insofar as the observer sees it that way.
There is no abstract, observer-independent view on meaning. Nihilism, inasfar as it is true, is only true because that is what you have chosen, and insofar as you are the observer. There is no logical necessity beyond that bare point. Because meaning is created, and you can't ... BE without it.
Just ask Faith.
If Faith can explain this mumbo-jumbo, she's a genius.

This message is a reply to:
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