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Author Topic:   Political Identity Crisis
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 16 of 153 (281573)
01-25-2006 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
01-25-2006 5:59 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
Also, take health-care costs. One of the main reasons health care costs rose so much is because of the insurance industry. What happened is there is now an extra layer of corporate beaurocracy that has to be paid, and extra paperwork, claims, etc,...and as this was laid on top of existing costs, the costs skyrocketed. The same level of health care now included a ton of more work and services and so the costs rose.
They also rose because insurance increased demand, and you may say, yea, that's good because more people could get health service, but often the demand is not really effective and necessary. I can't tell you as a parent how many parents rush to the doctor for every little cold their kid has "because, you know, it might be strep", but when they don't have insurance, they stay home unless it really is strep or something worse.
Are their children any better off rushing to the doctor because the insurance pays either way?
No, they are not. Plus the increased costs due to the insurance program has resulted in millions of middle class families doing without insurance, not because they are poor but because they are not poor and do noy qualify for free insurance (medicare).
Another harmful effect to the insurance system is that now doctors don't always make the best decision they would make for the patient because the insurance company (HMO) won't pay for it, and doctors that go ahead anyway are under pressure from the HMO or insurance program to change their treatment. It's a corrupting influence in the profession, making a profession a business.
So really, in the case of medicine, socialism as you put it, is all about transferring power to corporate and state interests and away from the professionals qualified to make the best decisions.
One last point, a lot of patients before insurance was widespread were treated for free, about 20%. That was just how doctors did it in many areas. My father and grandfather were both doctors in NC, and they treated people when they could not pay, and sometimes people gave them farm stuff like produce, or a ham, or even moonshine (though my Dad didn't drink it) or something like that, sometimes for years even in appreciation of their work. So it's not like in those times that people did not get care. The insurance system, overall imo, has not really served people better. There are still people outside the system, but the insurance companies aren't going to treat them for free, and the costs have risen dramatically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 01-25-2006 5:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by RAZD, posted 01-25-2006 8:53 PM randman has replied
 Message 28 by crashfrog, posted 01-26-2006 9:10 AM randman has replied

  
Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 153 (281585)
01-25-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
01-25-2006 7:54 AM


Re: Why pin it down?
quote:
Why do you need to choose a label? How about just considering yourself an independent, and voting on each issue and each candidate on the merits?
  —"nwr"
Well, the label itself isn't important. When it comes to actually voting on each issue and candidate, I plan to do as you say. I plan to register as an independent.
quote:
For myself, I don't think libertarianism works. It seems to be based on a romanticized idea about people that does not correspond to the way people really behave.
  —"nwr"
This is the biggest problem I have with libertarianism. It just seems out of touch with reality in some aspects. Beyond the issue of civil rights, I don't find much agreement within that framework.
I must say, however, that socialism presents some problems of it's own, which you pointed out.
Edit: I can see now that I was looking at socialism purely from the view of the state, which I thought was somewhat neccesary. It appears that isn't the case, so it was a misunderstanding on my part.
This message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:34 PM
This message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:34 PM
This message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:35 PM
This message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 08:36 PM
This message has been edited by Madfish, 01-25-2006 09:24 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 153 (281587)
01-25-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iano
01-25-2006 4:44 PM


Heh. I'm sure that you have a point that you're trying to make, but I bet it's off topic for this thread.
At any rate, I hope that you have been well, iano. Unfortunately, I haven't been reading the threads on which you have been active.
Added by edit:
On the other hand, it appears that this thread is being derailed into another "Socialism: good or bad, and does anyone even know what the word means?" thread.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 26-Jan-2006 01:55 AM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 153 (281588)
01-25-2006 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
01-25-2006 6:50 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
One of the main reasons health care costs rose so much is because of the insurance industry. What happened is there is now an extra layer of corporate beaurocracy that has to be paid, and extra paperwork, claims, etc,...
Another thing to consider is the republican move to HMO's also meant that the industry moved from a non-profit format to a business - CEO makes a ton of money - format.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by randman, posted 01-25-2006 6:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
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Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 153 (281592)
01-25-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Wounded King
01-25-2006 10:40 AM


Political Compass
Thanks for the link. Filled it out and the results were
Economic Left/Right: - 7.63
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: - 7.95
I'm in the libertarian left and seem to favor "voluntary regional collectivism" according to the chart. Seems about right to me. Maybe there wasn't as big a conflict as I thought.

This message is a reply to:
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Madfish
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 153 (281594)
01-25-2006 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
01-25-2006 4:48 PM


Well, as far as the current political landscape goes, i'll be backing the Democrats as the lesser of two evils. I'm open to voting for a Republican candidate, but they would have to be pretty different from the current status quo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 01-25-2006 4:48 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Asgara, posted 01-25-2006 9:36 PM Madfish has not replied
 Message 23 by nwr, posted 01-25-2006 9:40 PM Madfish has not replied
 Message 30 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-26-2006 10:50 AM Madfish has not replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2293 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 22 of 153 (281595)
01-25-2006 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Madfish
01-25-2006 9:30 PM



This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 23 of 153 (281596)
01-25-2006 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Madfish
01-25-2006 9:30 PM


One of the important voting principles is "throw the rascals out". If the candidates are all pretty bad, then vote against the incumbent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Madfish, posted 01-25-2006 9:30 PM Madfish has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 24 of 153 (281601)
01-25-2006 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by randman
01-25-2006 6:37 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
Now, take a low wage earner that would make, say, 20K per year in terms of cost to his employer. He is losing $3000 per year because some liberal democrats want to "help him."
Right, but suppose he works 2 years and then is permanently disabled. Now, he draws SS for life. Over the rest of his life he makes way more than the $6000 he's paid so far.
It's insurance, not retirement. You just said that you supported insurance.
If you want to help retirees, get the funding somewhere else besides the poorest wage earners in our soceity.
It's not for retirees. It's insurance for all workers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by randman, posted 01-25-2006 6:37 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by randman, posted 01-26-2006 12:36 AM crashfrog has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 25 of 153 (281629)
01-26-2006 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by RAZD
01-25-2006 8:53 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
I don't get it. Insurance companies were non-profit in your book?

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4889 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 26 of 153 (281630)
01-26-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by crashfrog
01-25-2006 9:59 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
I didn't say I supported insurance for the record, and why should those least able to pay high taxes be slapped with such a high tax bill? You think private insurance and retirement plans would cost as much as 15% of one's earning power?
Gimme a break. It's a big rip-off of the American worker foisted on him by liberal democrats that suck up the retirement funds of poor people and spend it on government programs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by crashfrog, posted 01-25-2006 9:59 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 01-26-2006 9:04 AM randman has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 153 (281708)
01-26-2006 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by randman
01-26-2006 12:36 AM


Re: bottom line for me...
You think private insurance and retirement plans would cost as much as 15% of one's earning power?
Oh, I think they'd cost much, much more. In fact, it's proven that they would cost much, much more. Social Security is the most cost-effective way to provide what it provides.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by randman, posted 01-26-2006 12:36 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by randman, posted 01-26-2006 11:50 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 153 (281710)
01-26-2006 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by randman
01-25-2006 6:50 PM


Re: bottom line for me...
They also rose because insurance increased demand, and you may say, yea, that's good because more people could get health service, but often the demand is not really effective and necessary. I can't tell you as a parent how many parents rush to the doctor for every little cold their kid has "because, you know, it might be strep", but when they don't have insurance, they stay home unless it really is strep or something worse.
Are their children any better off rushing to the doctor because the insurance pays either way?
Actually, everybody is. Studies prove that the more often people see the doctor early on - something they can only afford to do if they're insulated from the health care costs - the cheaper health care becomes for all the rest of it.
Which makes quite a bit of sense. The vast majority of medical conditions are such that they can be treated a lot more cheaply, or even prevented, by early detection and diagnosis. But doctors can't diagnose via ESP. Your plan, which leaves people out in the cold until the last possible minute, means that conditions aren't treated until they become serious, which means a lot more expense for you and I to shoulder.
More people going to the doctor actually drives costs down, not up. It's a lot cheaper to treat a heart attack by preventing it with medication than by a 6-hour laproscopic surgery. Early detection, which can only happen when people are insulated from medical costs, means that we all shoulder a lot less expense. And people are healthier, too.
Canada has universal health care; as a result they spend one-sixth of what we spend per capita, while consistently delivering superior medical care, because people can afford to go to the doctor when they start to get sick as opposed to when they can't ignore it any longer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by randman, posted 01-25-2006 6:50 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by randman, posted 01-26-2006 11:55 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 37 by randman, posted 01-26-2006 11:56 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 38 by NosyNed, posted 01-27-2006 12:36 AM crashfrog has replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 29 of 153 (281731)
01-26-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Asgara
01-25-2006 9:36 PM


i like that barak obama guy.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 30 of 153 (281732)
01-26-2006 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Madfish
01-25-2006 9:30 PM


i like mccain well enough. at least he has his own balls. i also like powell. same reason.

This message is a reply to:
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