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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 286 of 300 (283185)
02-01-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
01-01-2006 2:39 AM


Re: Health
Of course not metaphors. In that case the suffering was a test. Job was certainly a righteous man, but like everyone else he'd inherited the sin nature -- or no suffering could have touched him (the only perfectly righteous man was Jesus, who had to choose to suffer and die bearing the sins of others, because in Himself he couldn't die).
well, than job makes no sense. it's no test if job deserves his punishment.
also, i'm not sure that this jesus bit makes much sense either. how could suffering touch christ if he was born without original sin? and how could he die for our sins, if he couldn't die?
Happy New Year Arach.
I disagree with just about everything you write, but I hope it doesn't get personal.
i guess i missed this post before. going through old posts now that i can check my email. but, uh, belated happy new year to you too!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 2:39 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 1:46 PM arachnophilia has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 287 of 300 (283186)
02-01-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by arachnophilia
02-01-2006 1:37 PM


Re: Health
also, i'm not sure that this jesus bit makes much sense either. how could suffering touch christ if he was born without original sin? and how could he die for our sins, if he couldn't die?
Because our sins are imputed to him, they are IN him or ON him or however that is to be said, they were taken into or upon himself as if they were his own, so he died for all those sins as his own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 1:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 2:21 PM Faith has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 288 of 300 (283199)
02-01-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
02-01-2006 1:46 PM


Re: Health
well, that still doesn't explain job. do we need original sin? why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 1:46 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 2:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 289 of 300 (283207)
02-01-2006 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by arachnophilia
02-01-2006 2:21 PM


Re: Health
I think original sin makes all the suffering in the world understandable, and that without it there is no reasonable -- or acceptable -- explanation for it.
It also explains why Job could suffer and yet be a righteous man -- because nobody is perfectly righteous no matter how righteous. As I said already though. So I guess you're convinced or you're not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 2:21 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 2:55 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 291 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 3:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 296 by Coragyps, posted 02-01-2006 4:12 PM Faith has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 290 of 300 (283211)
02-01-2006 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
02-01-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Health
I think original sin makes all the suffering in the world understandable, and that without it there is no reasonable -- or acceptable -- explanation for it.
It also explains why Job could suffer and yet be a righteous man -- because nobody is perfectly righteous no matter how righteous. As I said already though. So I guess you're convinced or you're not.
i guess i'm not. because if job has any sin at all, he has no right to complain. he's getting what he deserves. job DOES have explanation of why bad things happen to good people, and it's not original sin. it's not particularly comforting in the way the book of job puts it, or a very good answer, but it's an answer nonetheless.
note also hat original sin isn't so much as mentioned anywhere in the book. that would have been a good explanation from god: "blame it on adam." but the idea isn't even there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 2:30 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 291 of 300 (283222)
02-01-2006 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
02-01-2006 2:30 PM


Job
Job is both blameless and upright. There is no indication anywhere in the book of original sin. The inflictions he suffers are not related to anything that Job does, or does not do, but rather to a direct request from GOD for Satan to test whether or not Job fears God and shuns evil because the Lord has "put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land."
Satan suggests "But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."
To test that GOD says, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger."
So what Job suffers is not related at all to original Sin but to the direct wishes of GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 2:30 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 3:59 PM jar has replied
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 4:09 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 292 of 300 (283229)
02-01-2006 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by jar
02-01-2006 3:52 PM


Re: Job
There is also nowhere in the entire Bible a "mention" of God as existing in three persons, but it is an inference from dozens if not hundreds of statements nevertheless. One has to read the Bible intelligently, not literal-mindedly looking for things to be said "in so many words."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 3:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 4:06 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 294 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 4:06 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 300 (283231)
02-01-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
02-01-2006 3:59 PM


Re: Job
What does any of that have to do with the Book of Job? In the book of Job the causes of Job's suffering is quite clearly shown, and it is not Original Sin.
While there are allusions to the Fall in the Bible, and even ones that can be stretched to assert they point to Original Sin, when you actually read the Genesis account there is no support for either the idea of a Fall or of Original sin.
Start a thread on the subject and we can discuss it.
But I have show that there is no support for using the concept of Original Sin or the Fall or even that Satan is a Fallen Angel in the book of Job. In Job Satan is only carrying out the wishes and commands of GOD.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 3:59 PM Faith has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 294 of 300 (283232)
02-01-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
02-01-2006 3:59 PM


Re: Job
One has to read the Bible intelligently, not literal-mindedly looking for things to be said "in so many words.
well, yes, i agree with this statement. however, we can't just go quotemining for dogma and read whatever we want into it either.
in the case of job, original sin can only be inferred to NOT be in place. it would negate the premise of job being upright and not deserving the curses put upon him. the question of job is "why do bad things happen to good people?" and the answer doesn't appear to be quite that "there is no such thing as a good person."
job is blameless, and upright. perfect in everyway. the closest we get to original sin is the comparison between god and job -- next to god, job (perfect though he is) is nothing, and evil. but i think that's more a statement about GOD than it is about job.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 3:59 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 295 of 300 (283233)
02-01-2006 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by jar
02-01-2006 3:52 PM


Re: Job
Let me say this more clearly.
Original sin is inferred from other parts of the Bible. The Bible is understood to be a consistent whole by my branch of Christianity. Therefore whatever is true for one book is true for all books. It does not have to be stated. Other parts of the Bible say clearly that there is NO one righteous, no not one. So applying these truths to the Book of Job we understand that Job's genuine righteousness is nevertheless imperfect or relative. Therefore it is possible for him to suffer. Yes, God decreed his suffering at the request of the devil. This is the reason for his suffering. But it would not have been possible if Job were perfectly righteous.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 3:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 297 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 4:15 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 298 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 4:16 PM Faith has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 725 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 296 of 300 (283234)
02-01-2006 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
02-01-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Health
I think original sin makes all the suffering in the world understandable, and that without it there is no reasonable -- or acceptable -- explanation for it.
"Original sin" is about as mind-bogglingly UNreasonable an explanation for "suffering in the world" as I can imagine. Wow.
And I thought it was a pretty sorry deal back when I was a Christian, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 2:30 PM Faith has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 297 of 300 (283236)
02-01-2006 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
02-01-2006 4:09 PM


Re: Job
Original sin is inferred from other parts of the Bible. The Bible is understood to be a consistent whole by my branch of Christianity. Therefore whatever is true for one book is true for all books. It does not have to be stated. Other parts of the Bible say clearly that there is NO one righteous, no not one.
right, sure. but it says that job *IS* righteous.
perhaps it's good to look at the whole of job, not just the first few sentances. job is perfect -- except when compared to god. maybe that's what paul meant. so perhaps job has some insight on romans, not the other way around.
Yes, God decreed his suffering at the request of the devil. This is the reason for his suffering. But it would not have been possible if Job were perfectly righteous.
it's more a matter of who's in charge. if you get in a fight with god, you're wrong whether or not you might have a point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 4:09 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 298 of 300 (283237)
02-01-2006 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
02-01-2006 4:09 PM


Re: Job
Yes, that is what your sect of Christianity believes. However, if you will start a thread on the subject we can see if it is a supportable position.
Yes, God decreed his suffering at the request of the devil. This is the reason for his suffering. But it would not have been possible if Job were perfectly righteous.
So you believe GOD is limited by a humans relative righteousness?
Original sin is inferred from other parts of the Bible.
Fine. Start a thread on it and we can discuss it. Perhaps you can even convince me that there was a Fall or anything like Original Sin. Are you open to being persuaded there there was no Fall and there is no Original Sin?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 4:09 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-01-2006 5:09 PM jar has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3918 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 299 of 300 (283243)
02-01-2006 5:09 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by jar
02-01-2006 4:16 PM


Re: Job
nature and the fall of man
original sin
there have been more i'm sure but those are still open and i wager faith has been active in both and refuses to listen to the alternatives. but that's just a petty wager. a coffee maybe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 4:16 PM jar has not replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 300 (283254)
02-01-2006 5:37 PM


End of thread - closing
We have the magic 300 count of messages.
Closing this thread.
This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 02-01-2006 04:38 PM


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