Cartoons and common sense

Ok, so now we've got two sets of signs.How am I supposed to know if it's "kill Bush" people at an anti-war rally, or anti-war people at a "kill Bush" rally?Isn't it more reasonable to conclude that everybody is at an anti-war/kill Bush rally? That it's all just one rally demonstrating for both points at once? You tell me. Did you march with the IRA terrorists? Were you at their rallies, or were they at yours? How am I supposed to tell?

Look, let's not pretend like it's just one guy here with one sign, ok? We're talking about a very significant portion of the protestors in question.You guys are being ridiculious. If you can't tell a person's position by the position they demonstrate for, and allow others to demonstrate for on their behalf, how do we know anything about what anybody holds?If I look at a crowd of marching people, clearly all part of one rally, am I supposed to interview every single goddamned one to try to establish what the hell the rally is about? Or isn't it sufficient to glance at the signs?

I think in this particular case, Cashfrog has a point. We aren't talking about student demonstrations or some kind of rally for the environment. These people, in particular wahhabism folks, hate us. Hate us! Hate us! Hate us!I don't know how I can make that any clearer. There is not even a small bit of love for Americans. None. Nothing. Complete and total hatred.Now, if you are a muslim demonstrating against the depection of your Lord in a Danish cartoon through the streets of an American city or in places in Europe, then perhaps your intent is just that.If you are a muslim marching through the streets of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia... well, chances are your intent is the destruction of anything not directly linked to the nation of Islam and anyone that gets in your way. They didn't need a cartoon to demonstrate... they just needed an excuse.- Babelfish

??? First of all you made the assertion. Thus it is upon you to back it up, not me to back up my challenge.Second, I have already said where you should go to get more info. I cannot link to feeds of the demonstrations. I am sorry but that is beyond me. I have watched them and maybe I'm lucky in that I get more live streams given that I am closer to their timezone, and have less propagandistic news services? I dunno. Depending on the demonstration you can see various signs ranging from "boycott danish products" to holocaust refs. You can see disputes within the demosntrations, indeed that is where some injuries come from, and when violence begins you can see people trying to stop it as well as just leave.Third, I have suggested how you can tell that your extrapolations are incorrect. You say people speak for "everyone" and "everyone agreeing"? I'm asking where you have seen that because I have seen no such thing. That is especially true when the extapolation is from extremists demagoguing up to all of the mideast (or most of the mideast). The FACTS are that these events have been small scale compared to populations, and the rioters have been smaller still. Also, the demonstrators are getting killed by someone, and those someones are muslims.Fourth, if you are reading articles on the riots it should be getting clearer all the time. Officials from inside and outside Islam are suggesting what I have been arguing the whole time. While people are upset, demonstrations are being orchestrated and/or infiltrated by extremist elements which are pushing another agenda. Unless you are going to claim world leaders are in on some conspiracy to disguise the real nature of people in the mideast, I'm not sure what you are left to stand on.Even the editor of the Danish paper who originally published the cartoons is suggesting that it is the work of radicals trying to take advantage, and work people up. That is actually besides the point, and for a very important reason: "Islam" does not claim that its adherents have a stronger fundamental connection. There are only factions of Islam. And while factions may claim their adherents have a bond, those outside it are just as different as anyone else. That is why they have wars with each other.Atheism is by nature splintered. That's actually why I added "marxist" to the mix. You may be an athiest-capitalist. I dunno. But that's just the same as a wahabi v sunni relationship.Focus to the same text does not make one responsible for actions of others who read the same text differently. Islam is telling you that? You mean members of the Islamic community are saying that extremist elements are tarnishing their name and they need to deal with it right? That doesn't mean that all members agree with that sentiment or that there really is an onus of one faction to "deal with" another faction in any way different than YOU should be.I guess you could explain what extra steps someone in the Islamic community must engage in than you, to combat radical Islamic factions? It sounds to me like you just aren't hearing moderate muslims speaking out for what they believe. I agree that muslims will be better placed to experience and so engage in radical Islam. When in those situations they should, but no more so than what you would be called to do when you encounter such a situation.I just cannot look at people and see that one person has a greater obligation to deal with another just because they carry the same religious text. It makes no sense to me.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Absolutely agreed. DEPENDING ON THE DEMONSTRATION, there are greater or fewer signs that are wholly violent in nature. That's the problem, there seems to be no care in discussing the nature of the demsontrations at all. If they are muslim and they are protesting then its all connected somehow.Some of these seem pretty darn orchestrated. In that case it really doesn't matter what signs they are holding anyway, but we can believe most have a rather violent agends. Some of them are infiltrated. This can create all kinds of confusion and really one cannot say that most of those demonstrating hold the same position as the extremists.And as I have pointed out that kind of hyperbolic language is more acceptable within that region, and so people are probably going to be more tolerant of being at a rally where something quite extreme is said, even if they disagree with its extent.In the end I think demonstrators and intent of a demonstration should be judged based on what it is about. If it is an antiwar rally (that is the common and unified theme), the fact that a bunch of people have antiBush signs does not make it an antiwar AND antibush rally. What it should tell you is that ALL of them are antiwar, and SOME of them are also antiBush. The latter cannot be extrapolated to the whole, or beyond the demonstrators to the people in that region.At demonstrations you can see people agreeing and disagreeing with each others' signs. At least I have. But they usually stick together for the common cause which is the SINGLE focus of the rally.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

So we should assume bad intentions of anyone in Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and never listen to what they say when they demonstrate because they really want to kill us?Yeah, that sounds pretty rational.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

quote:

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I don't know how I can make that any clearer.

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What? Your xenophobic paranoia? That is coming across loud and clear.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Okay, much is being discussed, without many real facts being laid out. I certainly was not aware of all facts of how this came about, or continures to unfold. Here is a link to a timeline of events. It makes for interesting reading and really does raise the issue of common sense. Its one of those things that you can see if people would just choose the higher road, much of this could have been avoided. A comedy (or tragedy) of errors.Reading through this, it seems to be pretty obvious that the Danish newspaper really was acting in an anti-muslim fashion, rather than strictly free speech. Surprise at the reaction is a bit naive. Although I don't like laws against such things, it is also pretty obvious muslims had a legal case which was unfairly dismissed by the Danish gov't. And the Danish PM was a moron for blowing off a meeting with ambassadors regarding the issue, where they could have coordinated some way of dealing with it. This is pretty much common sense.Then extremists, and political opportunists, have taken advantage of the issue to manufacture a crisis. There have been orchestrations and infiltrations, and actually on both sides. I had not realized fascist europeans have gotten in on the act. People are being duped and used.But still there is no single label one can pull from this about people in the MidEast, or about Islam in general. You have many different kinds of protests and actions at different levels. You can even find support for anger and calls for censorship from nonmuslim communities. Thankfully it seems a moderate group has emerged specifically in Denmark and intends to try to counter some of the extremist activities.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

What are you talking about? It seems the moslems were over reacting since the get go. Heck, bullet no. 3 is death threats to the cartoonists!It started out peacefull, but it seems to have escalated, and not because of the danish. It seems to have something to do with the delegation of Imams.

Ok, fair enough. Since you're not going to answer my question, and you clearly formulate your morals in a different way than I do in regards to what responsibilities a person has to their community, then I guess there's not much else to talk about.

Hmmm... well how about you accept the fact that people have differing views? how about you accept that because people have a common grievance does not infer that the agree on the solution?
can you not see that protests of all kinds will atract people of differing levels of pacifism/militantism(is that a word?)?I'll ask again, lets see if if you can manage an answer? what complete shit! "chances are"? "CHANCES ARE"? come on... you have to do much better than that if you're going to condemn an entire nation as evil terrorists.

I do not have the time to respond to long posts, such as yours.
And, rebuttals seem to never end on this forum. With my limited time I will just go on to other things.In Islam, religious duty is first priority, and that is why your brand of democracy and its undiciplined free speech will not work. Yet, we can have free elections and not create war with the west. Riots are expected with the religious vs secular differences.As Mr. Holmes has stated, there are different viewpoints. There can be peace without imposing one culture's view on another country.Many western leaders agree that America should not have invaded Iraq.
That means a mistake was made.
If America can make mistakes, then why should it have nuclear weapons? You might make another mistake and bring the world to war.And why, if different viewpoints are acceptable, should you prohibit middle eastern countries to have those weapons? Your countries are imposing your worst fears on others, or just being a bully.If nuclear standoff was OK with Soviets, then why wouldn't that also work with all countries?Developing a nuclear weapon is inevitable in Iran and other middle east countries. Why fight it? Why not learn how to form a diplomatic approach?My Texas residence is a business situation. You seem to assume citizen status. I help get oil to your continent from the middle east. That business brings wealth, so I am pleased with the situation. I travel in this arrangement for contract reasons. Since China and India are booming, the barrel must be split among market forces.I do not say too much, because I do not want to risk trouble with your government or my business ties. I know that my foreigh phone calls and email are probably monitored. But I have no subversive ties.

many would say that by demanding that the west conform to your religious dictates, i.e.
banning portrayal of the prophet IS imposing one culture's view on another country. I don't think anyone would consider nuclear standoff with anyone as 'OK'
it was a terrible situation, and that is why it cannot be allowed to happen again.Do you think a government who publicly calls for another country to
'wiped off the face of the earth'
should be allowed to have a nuclear bomb at the ready?

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What? Your xenophobic paranoia? That is coming across loud and clear.

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I don't know where this comes from nor do I feel why I have to explain myself, but here goes.I am caucasion...- My current roomate is black.- My ex-girlfriend is Chinese- My current girlfriend is Latin- My LONG time girlfriend of many years (later college years) is Japanese- The church I attended most of my life is in the heart of Chinatown here in Houston and was the first to open it's doors to the Chinese community for worship. My father was instrumental in the program.- Not but a few miles from my own home is a Mosque and I was appalled when some asshat put up a ply wood sign, that called them terrorists, in the playground where Muslim children play.- A roomate in college that I had for two semesters... are you ready for this... is a Muslim from Saudi Arabia. I don't know how I could be accused of being xenophobic when I requested to be his roomate for a second semester when I returned. He was the one who hipped me to the jive of Wahhabism folks. It was by his own accounts of demonstrations that I came to understand just how deep their hatred for Xians is. He was quite imphatic when he used the term "hate".I don't want things to be this way. I want to be able to got to Baghdad and not have to sit on top of a humvee to do it. I welcome Muslims... ANY MUSLIMS... to come to this country. I would open my doors for them... and my arms. You think I want them to hate us? You think I want them to despise my existence? I don't. The problem is... many of them do.If you think I am in some way exaggerating about their hatred for us... then get on a plane. Go on... get on a plane and travel to Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia... find a wahhabism rally... wear a t-shirt that says "Christian American," on the front and "Up with Bush," on the back... and see how long you survive. Go on! Do it! Call it a social experiment.-Babelfish

Yaro, as a personal favor to me, would you consider changing your avatar image?I think you've seen enough of me here at EvC to know how strongly I feel about freedom of speech. I fully support your right to speak and display your opinion as you see fit. Here is a link to the beginning of my brief, recent exchange with IANAT.I ask you in the name of peace to change your avatar image.Please?Thank you for any consideration you can give to my request.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-09-2006 12:48 PM

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