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Author Topic:   Another Test for Intelligent Design Proponents
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 151 (284808)
02-07-2006 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by inkorrekt
02-07-2006 9:44 PM


Re: explanation
quote:
If random choice and natural selection is observable, why is it that I could never observe the pieces of a puzzle self assemble themselves?
Umm...maybe because there is no natural selection nor "random choice" [sic] involved with the puzzle scenario?
-
quote:
If random choice and natural selection is observable, why is it that I could never observe the pieces of a puzzle self assemble themselves?
That's unfortunate for your friends, since useful mutations have been observed. Google "nylon bug" and "hemoglobin C".
-
quote:
Why is it that amino acids do not self assemble to make proteins?
Are you sure about this? Look up the law of mass action; you will find that in any mixture of chemicals in equilibrium both reactants and products will be present in some non-zero amount. So, if there are amino acids present, one would expect some polymers to be present as well.
--
Added by edit:
Speaking of looking things up, have you read up on the Urey/Miller experiments yet? You seem to have a habit of making serious errors of fact without acknowledging your mistakes.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 08-Feb-2006 04:40 AM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by inkorrekt, posted 02-07-2006 9:44 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by inkorrekt, posted 02-11-2006 6:29 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 122 of 151 (285007)
02-08-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by crashfrog
02-07-2006 9:55 PM


Re: explanation
For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary. For example, your computer must have all the components in place for it to function. If something is missing, you cannot have anything working. So, in the cell, the enzymes must be there with all cofactors and other necessary elements for protein synthesis to occur.
In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison. The mixture has equal parts of these 2 forms. So. they do not work. The D-form will will inhibit any further activity.
Chemical sysnthesis cannot occur at random. Only certain groups will react and others will not. For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist. Certain groups have to be protected.There is also another phenomenon known as Steric hindrance which does not allow any chemical to react with anything else. It is more complex than what you think. Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by crashfrog, posted 02-07-2006 9:55 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Chiroptera, posted 02-08-2006 2:59 PM inkorrekt has not replied
 Message 124 by Omnivorous, posted 02-08-2006 3:14 PM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2006 11:17 PM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 127 by Parasomnium, posted 02-09-2006 5:18 AM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 136 by Coragyps, posted 02-10-2006 12:08 PM inkorrekt has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 123 of 151 (285010)
02-08-2006 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by inkorrekt
02-08-2006 2:48 PM


Re: explanation
quote:
For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary.
This is false. First, simply by the law of mass action, if you have a solution that includes amino acids there will be a few polypeptides as well.
Second, catalysts to this reaction that do not involve preformed cellular architecture.
--
quote:
In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison.
Funny, but free oxygen is also a poison to life. Yet there is free oxygen, and there is life.
-
quote:
For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist.
This is false. Polypeptides can consist of only a single amino acid.
-
quote:
Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen.
Actually, you don't seem to know much about chemistry yourself.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by inkorrekt, posted 02-08-2006 2:48 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 124 of 151 (285012)
02-08-2006 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by inkorrekt
02-08-2006 2:48 PM


Re: explanation
Inkorrekt writes:
For example, your computer must have all the components in place for it to function.
Incorrect, inkorrekt: my computer needs a minimum set of components present to perform a given function; that minimum varies depending on what function I want it to perform.
I can pull the grapical display, the floppy, the CD drive, the keyboard, mouse, serial port, parallel port, USB ports, sound card, most of the memory, etc., and still have my computer start and perform useful functions.
It is more complex than what you think.
Your analogy makes the same sort of mistaken assumptions as your argument.

"Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by inkorrekt, posted 02-08-2006 2:48 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 125 of 151 (285107)
02-08-2006 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by inkorrekt
02-08-2006 2:48 PM


Re: explanation
In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison. The mixture has equal parts of these 2 forms. So. they do not work. The D-form will will inhibit any further activity.
Right. When you have an equal mix of both, that's called a "racemic" mixture.
But natural, inorganic processes exist that can seperate the one from the other. So amino handedness isn't really an obstacle to abiogenesis.
The D-form will will inhibit any further activity.
Well, only in a living thing that is developing L-handed proteins. Now, granted, that's every living thing on Earth, but there's no reason you couldn't have an organisms based on mirror-image chemistry, using d-handed aminos to make d-handed proteins. It's rather arbitrary, in fact. The fact that all living things share this mostly arbitrary handedness is a powerful evidence for common ancestry.
For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist.
Well, that's not true. Functional protiens can be assembled from a "palette" limited to as little as 8 different amino acids.
Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen.
What makes you think we're not chemists? What makes you think I don't have a whole shelf of graduate-level biochem texts sitting on my bookshelf?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by inkorrekt, posted 02-08-2006 2:48 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by inkorrekt, posted 02-09-2006 9:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 126 of 151 (285118)
02-09-2006 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by inkorrekt
02-07-2006 9:44 PM


Magic not included
inkorrekt writes:
I have a very difficult time believing this.
Yet you have no problem believing in an intelligent designer, for which there is no reason to be introduced, nor any evidence, and which just raises more questions than it answers.
When I think about random chance, mutations and natuiral selections only 2 things come into my mind.
I'm sorry for you. When I think about random mutation and natural selection, a myriad things come to my mind. I guess we have different minds.
1) If random choice and natural selection is observable, why is it that I could never observe the pieces of a puzzle self assemble themselves?
If the force of gravity is observable, then why is it I never see my keyboard jump off of the table by itself? Because that would be magic, that's why. And magic isn't covered by the theory of gravity. Nor is it covered by the theory of evolution. So please stop making such outrageous comparisons if you want to be taken seriously.
2) My friends have performed controlled mutations on the fruit fly,Drosphila Melanogaster. Even after millions of mutations, they have not found one useful mutant.
I think you are not saying what you meant to say. Am I to believe that your friends have the capability to actively cause a mutation of their choice in the genome of a fruit fly? I think you meant to say that your friends just let fruit flies mate and waited to see what variations appeared, right? And "millions of mutations"? Your friends are very patient people, I must say.
Anyway, what were your friends expecting? What were their criteria for the usefulness of a mutation? Can you cite their research please, or give us a link to it?
3) Why is it that amino acids do not self assemble to make proteins? Chemical evolution cannot occur.
Does your search engine have some intelligently designed filter or something? There are lots of scientific papers on self-assembling peptides - even self-replicating peptides! - so why don't you chuck your ID-coloured goggles and do a bit of googling instead?
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 09-Feb-2006 12:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by inkorrekt, posted 02-07-2006 9:44 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 127 of 151 (285119)
02-09-2006 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by inkorrekt
02-08-2006 2:48 PM


An incorrect chemist?
inkorrekt writes:
For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary.
No, it isn't. Google.
For example, your computer must have all the components in place for it to function. If something is missing, you cannot have anything working.
Nonsense. I've owned a computer that had one if its memory chips broken and removed. It worked fine.
There is also another phenomenon known as Steric hindrance which does not allow any chemical to react with anything else.
Again a case of saying something you did not mean to say. Or do you really believe that no chemical reactions take place on earth at all? Of course, I understand you didn't mean that, but I'm just pointing out that I think you should be more careful about how you phrase things.
It is more complex than what you think. Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen.
So, since you apparently do understand it, I take it you are a chemist. Are you?
This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 09-Feb-2006 12:08 PM

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by inkorrekt, posted 02-08-2006 2:48 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 02-09-2006 10:38 AM Parasomnium has replied
 Message 139 by inkorrekt, posted 02-11-2006 6:05 PM Parasomnium has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 128 of 151 (285173)
02-09-2006 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Parasomnium
02-09-2006 5:18 AM


Re: An incorrect chemist?
Parasomnium writes:
inkorrekt writes:
For amino acids to form proteins a preformed cellular architechture is necessary.
No, it isn't. Google.
To be fair to Inkorrekt, I tried to google this yesterday and came up dry. It seems a more than fair request for someone to try to support this point. The closest anyone has come was a post, I forget by who, that seemed to be saying that just by chance a solution of amino acids will form some proteins. Is that why Inkorreckt is incorrect, or is there more to it?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by Parasomnium, posted 02-09-2006 5:18 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by Parasomnium, posted 02-09-2006 10:54 AM Percy has not replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 129 of 151 (285177)
02-09-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Percy
02-09-2006 10:38 AM


Re: An incorrect chemist?
Percy writes:
I tried to google this yesterday and came up dry.
My curt reply was actually a referral to my previous reply to Inkorrekt, in which I wrote:
There are lots of scientific papers on self-assembling peptides - even self-replicating peptides!- so why don't you chuck your ID-coloured goggles and do a bit of googling instead?
If you google "self-assembly peptide" or "self-assembling protein" or "self-replicating protein", you should find lots of interesting links.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Percy, posted 02-09-2006 10:38 AM Percy has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 130 of 151 (285352)
02-09-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by crashfrog
02-08-2006 11:17 PM


Re: explanation
This is false. First, simply by the law of mass action, if you have a solution that includes amino acids there will be a few polypeptides as well.
Second, catalysts to this reaction that do not involve preformed cellular architecture.
"WELL, YOU CAN TRY THIS EXPERIMENT. YOU CAN COMBINE 2 AMINO ACID SOLUTIONS AND LEAVE THEM FOR AS LONG AS YOU WANT. THEY WILL STILL REMAIN AS AMINO ACIDS UNLESS YOU SUPPLY ENERGY AS WELL AS SOME CATALYST"-------------------------------------------------
In Nature, you have 2 forms of amino acids. One is the L-form. Which is biologically active. The D-form is abiological poison.
Funny, but free oxygen is also a poison to life. Yet there is free oxygen, and there is life.
" YOU ARE MIXING APPLES AND ORANGES. D-AMINO ACIDS ARE ENZYME INHIBITORS. THEY DO NOT ALLOW THE REACTION IN THE BIOLOGICAL SYSTEM TO CONTINUE. HOWEVER, OXYGEN FREE RADICAL CAUSES PEROXIDATION OF LIPIDS. SUPEROXIDE DISMUTASE WILL ELIMINATE THIS IN THE LIVING CELL. CELL WILL STILL SURVIVE"
For protein sysnthesis to occur,. all 20 amino acids must exist.
This is false. Polypeptides can consist of only a single amino acid.
"YES, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU CAN HAVE POLY GLYCINE AND POLY ASPARTIC ACID. THEY HAVE LIMITED ACTIVITIES. FOR ANY BIOLOGICAL ACTIVITY, THERE MUST BE DIVERSITY OF THE AMINO ACIDS. THE ISSUE HERE IS WHETHER SELF ASSEMBLY OF PROTEINS OCCURS OR NOT. THE ANSWER IS IT DOES NOT OCCUR"
Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen. Actually, you don't seem to know much about chemistry yourself.
"THANK YOU FOR THIS COMPLIMENT"
DID YOU KNOW THAT HALF KNOWLEDGE ON ANYTHING IS VERY DANGEROUS? YOU CAN HAVE EXHAUSTIVE VOLUMES OF SYNTHETIC ORGANIC CHEMISTRY. THEY STILL DO NOT ANSWER THE BASIC AND SIMPLE QUESTIONS"
once again, assumptions and wishfull thinking do not produce anything.Amino acids will stay as amino acids even after million years and chances are that they will be degraded. The chances of self assembly of aminot acids into proteins occuring is even less than 1 in 10 X42 (10 raised to the power of 42) which is a statistical improbability. If you believe that this is happening, that is Science fiction. Yes, it takes more faith to believe in Evolution than the believe in Intelligent Design."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by crashfrog, posted 02-08-2006 11:17 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Chiroptera, posted 02-09-2006 11:11 PM inkorrekt has not replied
 Message 132 by AdminWounded, posted 02-10-2006 9:00 AM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 133 by Percy, posted 02-10-2006 9:01 AM inkorrekt has not replied
 Message 137 by AdminWounded, posted 02-10-2006 12:24 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 151 (285369)
02-09-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by inkorrekt
02-09-2006 9:58 PM


Re: explanation
Is the use of ALL CAPS supposed to be a sign that you are an expert chemist?
Added by edit:
Actually, inkorrekt, if you wanted to convince anyone that you actually know something, you can read something about the Urey/Miller experiment. Then admit that embarrassing post of yours was substantially incorrect and inform us that you now understand what the significance of that experiment really is.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 10-Feb-2006 04:20 AM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by inkorrekt, posted 02-09-2006 9:58 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 151 (285449)
02-10-2006 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by inkorrekt
02-09-2006 9:58 PM


Multiple threads
Dear inkorreckt,
At the moment you seem to be bringing this topic up in at least one other thread. Could you choose one thread and restrict your comments to that thread.
If you agree to stick to discussing this topic there I am willing to promote Evopeach's related PNT, 'The Recurrent Problem of Chirality'. Would you be willing to restrict your discussions of this topic to that one thread instead of derailing other threads? Alternatively you might wish to put forward your own PNT.
TTFN,
AW
*ABE* Thanks for the right codes for the threads Percy!
This message has been edited by AdminWounded, 10-Feb-2006 02:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by inkorrekt, posted 02-09-2006 9:58 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 133 of 151 (285450)
02-10-2006 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by inkorrekt
02-09-2006 9:58 PM


Re: explanation
Hi Inkorrekt,
It's hard to tell where your words end and someone else's begin. There's a page of help on the use of dBCodes here: dBCode Help. It will tell you how to do quoting. HTML is also legal in posts.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by inkorrekt, posted 02-09-2006 9:58 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 134 of 151 (285509)
02-10-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by AdminWounded
02-10-2006 9:00 AM


Re: Multiple threads
Thank you for letting me know. Please go ahead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by AdminWounded, posted 02-10-2006 9:00 AM AdminWounded has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6082 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 135 of 151 (285513)
02-10-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Omnivorous
02-08-2006 3:14 PM


Re: explanation
Incorrect, inkorrekt: my computer needs a minimum set of components present to perform a given function; that minimum varies depending on what function I want it to perform"
When I said all the components, I only meant basic functions(Mother board, CPU, Memory and hard drive). Even for the basic functions, you should have all the components in the right place. I only gave n analogy. All the components(basic minimum) are necessary. Even if one is missing, it does nto function. Similarly, for protein sysnthesis to occur, all the structures in the cell are necessary for biosynthetic functions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Omnivorous, posted 02-08-2006 3:14 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
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