A Closer Look at Pat Robertson

How in the world did you come up with that assumption when I clearly advocate a separation of civil and ecclesiastical affairs? You follow God and suffer persecution in such instances. Government is made up of people. Take Congress. Congress gives thanks to God officially with the opening of every legislative session and has done so throughout our nation's history. That's fully Constitutional. Making members pray or believe though would not be. That depends on whether they do it as part of their official capacity in the name of the government. A conscience is an aspect of the greater awareness of man and his ability to make a choice. I suggest you ask God about it, but I would say part of the answer is He wants us to know right and wrong and for us to willingly choose to do right. It's as much a command and precept as a personal right, and it's according to the dictates of God, meaning it is God's intention for mankind. "Public praise" does not refer to the public in this context, but to the government itself. So the question does not make sense. 2 different things entirely. And your point is? Heck, I bet there are chaplains and ministers that would do it for free. No, I think Washington was entirely above having to tone it down for anyone, except whatever he felt internally was right. The idea that Jmes Madison and Jefferson "kicking his butt" is sheer lunacy, and in fact, Jefferson in today's standards according to some historians practically committed treason in opposing the Executive branch while serving in the Cabinet. Washington, as you will remember, was on the other side of the fence with Adams from Jefferson, and he was not intimidated or moved by Jefferson's love for the French revolution, and Jefferson himself moved away from his original stance on that regardless, as the French revolution proved to be overly violent.Perhaps it's over-reliance on secularist thought was the reason it went off the deep end?But regardless, there was no serious challenge to Washington based on his references to God.

The subtitle of Re: the wiki article seems bogus has been hanging around here since Message 28. Somehow I don't think we are still discussing this particular article.PLEASE everyone, pay attention to your subtitles, and the next one to answer, please change it.AbE - original subtitle was created in AUGThis message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 02-24-2006 04:24 PM

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AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Randman has received a "Post of the Month" nomination, with at least 2 "seconds". To a greater or lesser degree, this was to credit him with doing quality messages in responses to your much lower quality messages.Now, Randman has been a "problem child" in these parts, and we are all glad that he is doing better. That said, you are putting yourself in the position of "my messages make Randman look good".Bottom line - Let's try for better quality, not just A LOT OF QUESTIONS.Adminnemooseusps: The "Re: the wiki article seems bogus" subtitle, as per AdminAsgara, does need to die.

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Dear RandmanOk. I shall not assume that you believe the government has the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince someone to follow Christ.How do we distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs? Where do we draw the line? What is the rule, the test or the principle?Do you know the First U. S. Congress never prayed to open its daily legislative sessions, or else they were too ashamed of it to put it in the official records?If God created the conscience of man to inform him of right and wrong, then shouldn’t a man submit to God his sense of right and wrong with respect to his duties to God, and ignore any Thanksgiving Proclamations from President Bush that include recommendations to pray or any other duties to the Almighty?Is it possible that God might dictate a specific religious duty to you but not dictate that same duty to me?Does the majority get to use the government to express its religion?Is it Constitution for the State of California to make a law requiring that each elementary school class recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag (which includes what could be reasonably viewed as an affirmation of belief in God) once each day?If I am like Isaac Backus and believe that God dictates that I may not acknowledge any government authority whatsoever over my religion (including the authority to advise me whether or not I have a duty to believe in God), does that mean I cannot participate with my fellow American in a patriotic ceremony on account of my religious sentiments?Fred

Dear Adminnemooseus:I shall strive for improvement, and not just ask questions.Thanks for the advice. I am new to this, so just slap me down if I violate your customs and traditions. I learn fast.Fred

That's be a whole thread, but suffice to say, it can and is done all the time. Can you substantiate that? Also, it's a moot point as they adopted the tradition of a Congressional chaplain to do that. Evidently, they were not ashamed to do so. Uh, no,....and didn't we already cover this? Bush asking the nation to pray is a request not a law. Yes. That depends on the nature of the expression. The majority does get to use the government, imo, to express it's values, and some aspects of it's religion in the sense of recognizing God. It does not get to use the government to coerce people into one religion, or to restrict other religions. Yes, although children should be allowed to not participate if it violates their belief. {Changed the damned "Re: the wiki article seems bogus" subtitle to "Adminnemooseus kills an irrelevant subtitle (shall I suspend anyone who "re's" this?)" - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-24-2006 07:33 PM

Forgot the admonition for a new title

Dear Randman:I read you to say that you have no rule, test or principle that enables you to distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs.Did God authorize President Bush to recommend prayer to us or does the President automatically share God's authority over his religion? Does the Constitution permit the President to recommend that we abolish infant baptism?Contrary to the perjury of Chief Justice Warren Burger and the propaganda of Justice Antonia Scalia, there is no evidence of opening prayers by the Chaplains to Congress in the official records of the daily proceedings and debates of the House of Representative or Senate of the First U. S. Congress; or the Second U. S. Congress; or the Third; or the Fourth or; the..............If you find such evidence please show me.Click this link to the first page of the Annals of Congress and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers during the First U. S. Congress. Use peek to see how I shortened this linkClick this link to the first page of the Journal of the House and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers in the House during the First U. S. Congress. shortened linkClick this link to the first page of the Journal of the Senate and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers in the Senate during the First U. S. Congress. shortened linkFredThis message has been edited by FreddyFlash, 02-24-2006 09:34 PMThis message has been edited by AdminJar, 02-24-2006 08:40 PM

I love old threads. The perspectives can be compared from what was happening then to what is happening now.Take this article from NPR:
Trump Scorns Mainstream News, But Not The Christian Broadcasting NetworkLook at old Pat! Still living and breathing...and Trump cozying up to the evangelical voter base...Some quotes from the NPR article: Trump knows how to market himself as a Populist, that's for sure. As for being a Christian? I see no evidence so far....

Why do I have to repent, why do I have to ask for forgiveness if [I’m] not making mistakes?--Donald TrumpWhen I go to church and when I drink my little wine and have my little cracker, I guess that is a form of forgiveness. I do that as often as I can because I feel cleansed.--Donald Trump