A Closer Look at Pat Robertson

randman:What is the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state?"Where can I find evidence that the term "separation of church and state" was coined by the Anabaptists, but was used as far back as the Donatists?What exactly is "governmental participation of religious worship?"What is "governmental establishment in the law?"What was the role of the Congressional Chaplains during the First U. S. Congress?Where can I find evidence that the First U. S. Congress opened with prayer?Which founders said that religion and politics should be inextricable?Whatwas the founders fundamental principle of religious freedom?Fred

randman:If the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state" does not mean separation of God from the State, then what does it mean exactly? What is the fundamental principle?Was the First Amendment intended to express the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state?” Which one of the framers was the most ardent and articulate champion of the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state?"What exactly is it that we should we render unto Caesar, and what to God? Is it a giving to Caesr what belongs to God if we obey the Ten Commandments because the government recommends that we should?Should we listen to advice and recommendations from the Government regarding the duty which we owe to the Creator? Shouldn't we listen only to God regarding religious matters? Does God alone rule the conscience of man or does the Almighty share that authority with the government?Should Eve have listened to the religious advice of the Serpent?Where does the government obtain the moral authority to recommend that we should obey the Ten Commandments or a belief in “one Nation under God?”Where did Jesus talk about separate voluntary courts for the Church and what was the purpose of these courts?Please cite one good source to back up your claim that the term "separation of church and state" was coined by the Anabaptists, but was used as far back as the Donatists. I know the concept goes back at least to the 1500’s with the Baptists, but you are talking about the term?Does Paul's concept that God is the civil and religious authority conflict with Christ's concept that "My Kingdom is not of this world" and "Render unto Caesar only that which does not belong to God?"Why didn't Christ, when he was on trial, claim authority over the civil govenment and Pilate? Was the civil government included in the Kingdom of Christ?Fred

Hey randman:Does the government have the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince some one to follow Christ or some other religious authority?What is the solution if the King who is God’s authority on earth in both civil and religious matters, confounds his civil authority with his religious power?If God ordains that men must be true to their conscience, then shouldn’t the government respect God’s exclusive authority over religion matters and avoid making laws that recommend religious opinions such a belief in “one Nation under God?”Shouldn’t the government stay completely out the subject of whether or not this is “one Nation under God?” If God wants this to be “one Nation under God” do you really believe he needs or wants the government to assist him in promulgating that proposition?In 1789, only three states of the thirteen had any lawful authority to establish religion that they would have been motivated to preserve. Seven State had banned establishments of religion altogether by 1789, one State Maryland) had the power “on paper” but it was never exercised, Georgia did away with its wimpy establishment of religion (although it is hard to prove it every really had one) a month before the First Amendment was framed; and South Carolina’s even wimpier establishment was shot dead before the Great Amendment was out of diapers.Why wouldn’t the seven States that had already established a Separation of Church and State by 1789, and the three that would soon do so, not have wanted to protect the Separation of Government and Religion by stripping the federal government of all power over the duty that is owed to the Creator, just as the ten State governments were stripped of such authority?How do you explain the fact that the Federalist’s “no establishment of a national church like the Church of England” interpretation of the establishment clause was not the prevailing view during the Early Years of the Republic; and that James Madison’s “Total Separation of Religion and Government” interpretation prevailed in every dispute over the meaning of the establishment clause during the Early Years of the Republic?Name one dispute over the establishment clause during the Early Years of the Republic where Madison's view did not prevail?Fred

My Dear Friend Randman:I shall assume that you believe the government has the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince some one to follow Christ or some other religious authority.I still am not clear on the solution in the event the King confounds his civil authority with his religious power?How can an abstract concept like the government give thanks to God? Only individuals can give thanks to God.How do we distinguish between a public official or the government acknowledging God and establishing a duty to God? Was Roy Moore simply acknowledging God with his Ten Commandments monument? What about the law recommending a daily recital of belief in “one Nation under God?”Why did God give man a conscience?Is it the right to the free exercise of relgion according to the dictates of God, or according to the advice of the government?Does “public praise for God” include praise prompted by the government? Are we to praise God as prompted by God, or as prompted by the government, or do they share that power?What is the difference between a government mention of God and an establishment of of the duty to believe in God?Do you know that the Chaplains to the First U. S. Congress were paid less than messengers and janitors and that all they ever did for the First Congress in two years was perform one prayer service in a church?Have you ever read George Washington's second inaugural address? George Washington: Second Inaugural Address. U.S. Inaugural Addresses. 1989Why do you suppose the Great General toned it down so much the second time around? Do you suppose the tall tale about James Madison and T. J. kicking Washington’s butt into line on the Separation of Church and State, is really true?Are you familiar with Elisha Williams?Fred

Dear RandmanOk. I shall not assume that you believe the government has the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince someone to follow Christ.How do we distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs? Where do we draw the line? What is the rule, the test or the principle?Do you know the First U. S. Congress never prayed to open its daily legislative sessions, or else they were too ashamed of it to put it in the official records?If God created the conscience of man to inform him of right and wrong, then shouldn’t a man submit to God his sense of right and wrong with respect to his duties to God, and ignore any Thanksgiving Proclamations from President Bush that include recommendations to pray or any other duties to the Almighty?Is it possible that God might dictate a specific religious duty to you but not dictate that same duty to me?Does the majority get to use the government to express its religion?Is it Constitution for the State of California to make a law requiring that each elementary school class recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag (which includes what could be reasonably viewed as an affirmation of belief in God) once each day?If I am like Isaac Backus and believe that God dictates that I may not acknowledge any government authority whatsoever over my religion (including the authority to advise me whether or not I have a duty to believe in God), does that mean I cannot participate with my fellow American in a patriotic ceremony on account of my religious sentiments?Fred

Dear Adminnemooseus:I shall strive for improvement, and not just ask questions.Thanks for the advice. I am new to this, so just slap me down if I violate your customs and traditions. I learn fast.Fred

Dear Randman:I read you to say that you have no rule, test or principle that enables you to distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs.Did God authorize President Bush to recommend prayer to us or does the President automatically share God's authority over his religion? Does the Constitution permit the President to recommend that we abolish infant baptism?Contrary to the perjury of Chief Justice Warren Burger and the propaganda of Justice Antonia Scalia, there is no evidence of opening prayers by the Chaplains to Congress in the official records of the daily proceedings and debates of the House of Representative or Senate of the First U. S. Congress; or the Second U. S. Congress; or the Third; or the Fourth or; the..............If you find such evidence please show me.Click this link to the first page of the Annals of Congress and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers during the First U. S. Congress. Use peek to see how I shortened this linkClick this link to the first page of the Journal of the House and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers in the House during the First U. S. Congress. shortened linkClick this link to the first page of the Journal of the Senate and turn the pages to see if there were opening prayers in the Senate during the First U. S. Congress. shortened linkFredThis message has been edited by FreddyFlash, 02-24-2006 09:34 PMThis message has been edited by AdminJar, 02-24-2006 08:40 PM