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Author Topic:   A Closer Look at Pat Robertson
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 145 of 160 (289922)
02-24-2006 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by FreddyFlash
02-23-2006 9:02 PM


Re: the wiki article seems bogus
Freddy, some of this in terms of my knowledge comes from resources, books, stuff I learned in college and seminary, and so is not easily linked to on the web. So what I would do if I were you is to do some research on your own. I will google some items for you to what web verification material is out there for some questions, but you should also take some time to educate yourself.
One book I would highly recommend to anyone to get started with a deeper understanding of these ideas stemming from the Reformation is:
"The Reformers and Their Stepchildren" by Learnurd Verduin, who had a Fulbright scholarship to do some research in the 50s and spent a lot of time poring over original source material, some of which had been locked away. He quotes the original players in these things themselves, from Swingli, Luther, etc,....and from older documents. He gives a necessary historical balance to story of the Anabaptist tradition even though he comes from a different theological perspective, Reformed.
What is the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state?"
You would have to define what "traditional Christian" means? What it means to me may be different than what you think. The traditional concept, imo, is set forth by Jesus in making compulsion to his teachings voluntary, to envisioning soceity consisting of divided religious loyalties between his followers and the world, and exemplified by his statement to "give to Ceaser what is Ceaser's" and to God, what is His.
Separation of Church and State however does not mean separation of God from the State. Paul refers to both as under God, but separate, one a minister of the gospel and another of justice, and reading his writings more fully, he goes as far as to advocate separate voluntary courts for the Church so as to not entangle the Body of Christ before the law, something Jesus also talks about.
Where can I find evidence that the term "separation of church and state" was coined by the Anabaptists, but was used as far back as the Donatists?
I would recommend googling the phrase, and then searching in the found results Anabaptists and Donatists.
"Anabaptists", are many groups who adopted many of the beliefs of Zwingli, but later would fight him, and adopt many of the Calvin's theories.
- With "Grebel" (1920), they started saying that the Reforms of Luther didn't went far enough, keeping the baptism of children and the other sacraments... so, the first thing was to "re-baptize" all the children by immersion at older age, and to leave the Eucharist only as a "symbol".
... The "born-again" experience, is one distinguishing mark of the Anabaptists, giving emphasis upon the emotional, mystical experience, of having born-again at the moment of the Baptism by immersion at adult age.
... "A complete separation of church and state" to protect the liberty of the church, is another feature of the Anabaptists.
- Hoffman tried to erect a "kingdom of God" in Munster, without success.
- Anabaptists are of the "congregational" type, where each local church is autonomous... there is no Pope!... but now each congregation has its own self-named "little Pope", not the successor of Peter, but more demanding!.
- Another group, with Menno Simons, founded the "Mennonites" (after Menno) in Holland, who later went to Pennsylvania in 1653... the Hutterine Brethren", also went to Pennsylvania...
- A fourth group, the "Amish", led by the stern disciplinarian, Amman, went to Ohio, Illinois...
- The "American Baptists", are also heirs of the Anabaptist tradition, with congregational type of churches, but repudiate such a label, because of the pejorative connotations of Anabaptists...
- The same goes for the "English Separatists or Congregationalists", who took many tenets from Calvin... many were persecuted by the Puritans as heretics, fled to Holland for religious freedom and safety, and some of these "heretics" would end up in the USA on the "Mayflower", as the Pilgrim fathers of America.
- Other groups: "German Baptists" or Dunkars, went to America in 1723; the German Moravians, became the United Brethren Church in 1735.
http://religion-cults.com/...rotestant/P-Denominations-1.htm
Zwingli and the Zurich City Council reacted against the so-called Anabaptists with a program of intense persecution. The persecution in Zurich and other parts of Switzerland drove many Anabaptists to the neighboring northern and eastern areas--Alsace, the Palatinate, Tyrol, Moravia and the Netherlands. A number of Anabaptists gathered in Moravia in 1528, organized along communal lines and took their name from Jacob Hutter who joined the group in 1529.4 Thus began the Hutterian Brethren. In the Netherlands (Holland) a Catholic priest, Menno Simons, after some deep inner turmoil, joined the Anabaptist movement in 1536. In time he became the leader of the Dutch Anabaptists (Doopesgezinde). His followers were soon referred to as "Menists" and finally as "Mennonites".5
The Anabaptists gave considerable emphasis to the ideas presented in the following paragraphs:
....
Concept of the Church. To understand the Anabaptist concept of the church one must remember that they rejected the monolithic totalitarian view of society where the state and Christian church were united as one coterminous unit, and replaced it with two spheres: the church and the world.19 This concept of a voluntary church within a larger society set the Anabaptists apart from the Roman Catholic church and the Protestant reformers, Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin. A head-on clash between these concepts was inevitable between those who focused upon the realization of a pure church, and those who concentrated upon a monolithic society.
The Anabaptists aimed at the establishment of a church based on the pattern of the church in the New Testament; i.e., the visible body of Christ composed of regenerated individuals. This they viewed in two dimensions. In its vertical relationship, the church was the body of Christ of which He was the living head. Viewed horizontally, the church was a voluntary fellowship of believers.20
The ideal spiritual objective of the early Anabaptists was to actualize the true body of Christ on earth, the church as presented in the New Testament.
...
The concept of separation from secular society led the Anabaptists to insist on separation of church and state. They looked upon the state as ordained of God and as the instrument of God in the non-Christian world; but since Christians lived in the Church, they were to have no positive relationship with an institution created for sinners.26 Separation of church and state meant rejection of the civil arm in matters of religion, and was a factor in the strong stress on religious liberty.27 Rejection of the state in matters of religion and the stress on religious liberty, coupled with the concept of non-resistance, resulted in the concept of the suffering church.
There were, however, two notable exceptions to separation from the world. The first was a strong missionary program, and the second was a vigorous critique of the social order.28
Page not found - Swiss Mennonite Cultural and Historical Association
In 1612 John Smyth wrote, "the magistrate is not by virtue of his office to meddle with religion, or matters of conscience". That same year, Thomas Helwys wrote that the King of England could "command what of man he will, and we are to obey it," but concerning the church -- "with this Kingdom, our lord the King hath nothing to do." In 1614, Leonard Busher wrote what is believed to be the earliest Baptist treatise dealing exclusively with the subject of religious liberty. Baptists were influential in the formation of the first civil government based on the separation of church and state in what is now Rhode Island. Anabaptists and Quakers also share a strong history in the development of separation of church and state.
Baptists - Wikipedia
Perhaps we can take up these questions and the others on a different thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-23-2006 9:02 PM FreddyFlash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 10:19 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 147 of 160 (290098)
02-24-2006 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by FreddyFlash
02-24-2006 10:19 AM


Re: the wiki article seems bogus
If the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state" does not mean separation of God from the State, then what does it mean exactly? What is the fundamental principle?
The principle is based on the concept that the Church consists of regenerate (born-again) people that of their own free will decide to follow Jesus. The idea is that the State has no right to compel anyone to follow Christ, as that perverts the whole principle of people voluntarily making that choice.
Before Christ, people thought there had to be a common sacral rite, some commonality in religion, in order for society to function. Even the Old Testament reflects this, although the believer would argue by God's intention. The idea that a soceity could successfully function while being religiously divided was seen as ludicrous in the ancient world and even as late as the founding of the American colonies. Mainstream opinion was that only fools like the Quakers thought they could be successful in allowing religious liberty, and they thought Pennsylvania's experiment in that regard would not work well.
But it did work well.
The Christian idea is that both the Church and State are responsible and accountable to God, but that both have different and separate spheres of authority. The Church deals with ecclesiastical and spiritual matters, and the State is forbidden to intervene or involve itself there. The State though has a legitimate God-given function administering justice, keeping the peace, etc,....The traditional Christian idea thus places restrictions on kings and the State not found before.
Moreover, the Christian idea is that the individual and his conscience constitute an internal government respected by God in the sense that God ordains that men must be true to their conscience, and thus should never be compelled for force to sin against their own conscience.
Was the First Amendment intended to express the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state?”
Yes.
Which one of the framers was the most ardent and articulate champion of the traditional Christian concept of "separation of church and state?"
First off, I think you need to recognize the concept originated and was placed into prominent practice in the colonies, or some such as Rhode Island and Pennsylvania, long before any of the framers were born. The framers were not then originating anything new in that regard, and were greatly influenced by men like Isaac Backus who lobbied them hard.
But the truth is many framers went along with the establishment clause as much to protect state's rights and official state churches as to ordain religious liberty. Massuchusetts was not required to give up having an official religion and religious requirements for office-holders. So the idea was to keep Congress out of picking an official church because some colonies had state religions, some had state religions but in name only, and some believed in religious liberty and separation of Church and State.
The free exercise clause, imo, is the stating essentially the same purpose. The reason not to have an established church is so that religious expression and freedom would not be hindered.
The term "separation of Church and State" is not in the Constitution of course, and the Supreme Court quoting Jefferson in a decision I believe some decades ago does not amply illustrate that Jefferson wrote to the Baptists and was thus using their term. In fact, the "wall of separation" language simply echoes Roger Williams theology when he helped found Rhose Island, which in turn is based explicitly on Anabaptist theology.
What exactly is it that we should we render unto Caesar, and what to God?
Jesus referred to taxes, but I think though there are areas perhaps that are challenging to parse, the general idea is that civil matters and spiritual and ecclesiastical matters can be separated and dealt with by different institutions and groups.
Should we listen to advice and recommendations from the Government regarding the duty which we owe to the Creator?
What country are you referring to that does that? The simple answer is that regardless of who says something, if it is true, we should abide by it, and if not and it involves a duty to God, we should not abide by it. God comes first, not the State.
Where does the government obtain the moral authority to recommend that we should obey the Ten Commandments or a belief in “one Nation under God?”
I have virtually no idea what the heck are you talking about. The Ten Commandments? Does the anyone try to codify the whole Decalogue into law?
Where did Jesus talk about separate voluntary courts for the Church and what was the purpose of these courts?
Jesus says if your brother offend you, first go to him yourself, then take another brother and then bring it before the whole Church, and Paul advises the believers to pick out a wise among them to decide matters so we don't have believers appearing before the heathen for judgment. I am quite busy, but if you don't find these references, maybe tonight or this weekend, I can look them up for you.
Please cite one good source to back up your claim that the term "separation of church and state" was coined by the Anabaptists, but was used as far back as the Donatists. I know the concept goes back at least to the 1500’s with the Baptists, but you are talking about the term?
If the concept was the same, then it doesn't matter, does it? But here ya go.
All those who hold the idea of a free church and freedom of religion (sometimes called separation of church and state) are greatly indebted to the Anabaptists. When it was introduced by the Anabaptists in the 15th and 16th centuries, religious freedom independent of the state was a radical idea, and unthinkable to both clerical and governmental leaders. Religious liberty was equated with anarchy and Peter Kropotkin traces the birth of anarchist thought in Europe to these early Anabaptist communities. ("Anarchism" from The Encyclopaedia Britannica, 1910 By Peter Kropotkin)
According to Estep, "Where men believe in the freedom of religion, supported by a guarantee of separation of church and state, they have entered into that heritage. Where men have caught the Anabaptist vision of discipleship, they have become worthy of that heritage. Where corporate discipleship submits itself to the New Testament pattern of the church, the heir has then entered full possession of his legacy."
also
The present concept and idea of Anabaptism or rebaptism has existed at least since the 2nd century, and some Anabaptists also point to the 1st century example of the Apostle Paul in Acts chapter 19. Montanus, the Montanists, and Tertullian (2nd and 3rd centuries) denied infant baptism, practiced believer's baptism, and rebaptized those baptized by heretics. The Donatists (4th century) re-baptized those who had been baptized by bishops who were traditors, or who were from churches stained by fellowship with traditors[1]. Anabaptists (rebaptizers) were made criminals under the code of Justinian (A.D. 529). With anti-trinitarianism, it was one of two 'heresies' or schisms, punishable by death because of its political implications.
Their enemies and opposers gave Anabaptists their name; it is a term that means "rebaptizers." Nevertheless, the Anabaptists did not think of believer's baptism as "rebaptism". They did not recognize infant baptism as properly administered the first time. Though the main Anabaptist groups disagreed with few important Protestant doctrines, even the Protestants called them heretics. Zwingli called them Wiedertufer (Dutch, Wederdooper; Latin, Anabaptistae), Tufer (Dutch, Dooper or Doopsgezinden), and Catabaptistae (drowners[2]). Luther called them Schwrmer (fanatics, enthusiasts). They have also been known as Bolsheveki and "Stepchildren of the Reformation". The most common names the Anabaptists used for themselves were brethren, believers and Christians.
Anabaptism - Wikipedia
Note that the Wiki article does not deal with the Donatists specifically advocating "separation of Church and State" due to it's brevity, but it does mention the Donatists sharing a similar Anabaptist vision of the Church, and everything else flows out of that. The New Testament Christians and every restitutionist group such as the 16th century Anabaptists held to the view that the Church and the world are seperated spiritually. The Catholics introduced the concept that everyone in a geographic area in Christendom was Christian, and so the State should be allowed to enforce religion.
The Donatists rejected Catholicism. The reason they rebaptized was so that when a person of age committed to the Lord, their baptism could be of their own volition. If you understand the theology, then you can see that rebaptism and separation of Church and State must of necessity go hand in hand, except one can be for religious liberty and not for rebaptism, but not the other way around and be fully consistent in their theology.
Note as well that this theology goes further back than the Anabaptists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 10:19 AM FreddyFlash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 3:01 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 149 of 160 (290147)
02-24-2006 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by FreddyFlash
02-24-2006 3:01 PM


Re: the wiki article seems bogus
Does the government have the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince some one to follow Christ or some other religious authority?
What is the solution if the King who is God’s authority on earth in both civil and religious matters, confounds his civil authority with his religious power?
Freddy, I have already answered you. What don't you understand?
If God ordains that men must be true to their conscience, then shouldn’t the government respect God’s exclusive authority over religion matters and avoid making laws that recommend religious opinions such a belief in “one Nation under God?”
Shouldn’t the government stay completely out the subject of whether or not this is “one Nation under God?” If God wants this to be “one Nation under God” do you really believe he needs or wants the government to assist him in promulgating that proposition?
How does that affect someone's conscience? Sorry, but just because someone is offended does not mean we need to disallow public praise or mention of God or the Creator. People should not be forced to convert or believe, but the government can and should give thanks to God. If someone does not like that, he or she can just not participate in the thanksgiving or whatever. The idea is religious freedom, and that includes freedom for public officials and the State to acknowledge God, provided it is non-sectarian and non-coercive.
How do you explain the fact that the Federalist’s “no establishment of a national church like the Church of England” interpretation of the establishment clause was not the prevailing view during the Early Years of the Republic
First off, separation of Church and State was the prevailing view of most states, as you just admitted to. But some like Massachusetts did have official state churches. Moreover, right from the beginning, we had separation of Church and State in Rhode Island and Pennsylvania very early on.
So I am not sure what you are getting at.
You mention Madison's view as if you have a point, but don't specify. For example, was it Madison's views that Congressional chaplain be hired? I think Madison was actually oppossed to that one.
Read Washington's inaugural address. He flat out makes a large point to give thanks to the Creator who had divinely blessed this nation, and says it is an official act. Doesn't sound too concerned with how that generic thanks to God could entangle the government with religion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 3:01 PM FreddyFlash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 4:22 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 151 of 160 (290163)
02-24-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by FreddyFlash
02-24-2006 4:22 PM


Re: the wiki article seems bogus
I shall assume that you believe the government has the authority to use reason and persuasion to convince some one to follow Christ or some other religious authority.
How in the world did you come up with that assumption when I clearly advocate a separation of civil and ecclesiastical affairs?
I still am not clear on the solution in the event the King confounds his civil authority with his religious power?
You follow God and suffer persecution in such instances.
How can an abstract concept like the government give thanks to God? Only individuals can give thanks to God.
Government is made up of people. Take Congress. Congress gives thanks to God officially with the opening of every legislative session and has done so throughout our nation's history. That's fully Constitutional. Making members pray or believe though would not be.
How do we distinguish between a public official or the government acknowledging God and establishing a duty to God?
That depends on whether they do it as part of their official capacity in the name of the government.
Why did God give man a conscience?
A conscience is an aspect of the greater awareness of man and his ability to make a choice. I suggest you ask God about it, but I would say part of the answer is He wants us to know right and wrong and for us to willingly choose to do right.
Is it the right to the free exercise of relgion according to the dictates of God, or according to the advice of the government?
It's as much a command and precept as a personal right, and it's according to the dictates of God, meaning it is God's intention for mankind.
Does “public praise for God” include praise prompted by the government?
"Public praise" does not refer to the public in this context, but to the government itself. So the question does not make sense.
What is the difference between a government mention of God and an establishment of of the duty to believe in God?
2 different things entirely.
Do you know that the Chaplains to the First U. S. Congress were paid less than messengers and janitors and that all they ever did for the First Congress in two years was perform one prayer service in a church?
And your point is? Heck, I bet there are chaplains and ministers that would do it for free.
Why do you suppose the Great General toned it down so much the second time around? Do you suppose the tall tale about James Madison and T. J. kicking Washington’s butt into line on the Separation of Church and State, is really true?
No, I think Washington was entirely above having to tone it down for anyone, except whatever he felt internally was right. The idea that Jmes Madison and Jefferson "kicking his butt" is sheer lunacy, and in fact, Jefferson in today's standards according to some historians practically committed treason in opposing the Executive branch while serving in the Cabinet. Washington, as you will remember, was on the other side of the fence with Adams from Jefferson, and he was not intimidated or moved by Jefferson's love for the French revolution, and Jefferson himself moved away from his original stance on that regardless, as the French revolution proved to be overly violent.
Perhaps it's over-reliance on secularist thought was the reason it went off the deep end?
But regardless, there was no serious challenge to Washington based on his references to God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 4:22 PM FreddyFlash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by AdminAsgara, posted 02-24-2006 5:23 PM randman has not replied
 Message 154 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 6:41 PM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 156 of 160 (290208)
02-24-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by FreddyFlash
02-24-2006 6:41 PM


Adminnemooseus kills an irrelevant subtitle (shall I suspend anyone who "re's" this?)
How do we distinguish civil from ecclesiastical affairs? Where do we draw the line? What is the rule, the test or the principle?
That's be a whole thread, but suffice to say, it can and is done all the time.
Do you know the First U. S. Congress never prayed to open its daily legislative sessions
Can you substantiate that? Also, it's a moot point as they adopted the tradition of a Congressional chaplain to do that. Evidently, they were not ashamed to do so.
If God created the conscience of man to inform him of right and wrong, then shouldn’t a man submit to God his sense of right and wrong with respect to his duties to God, and ignore any Thanksgiving Proclamations from President Bush that include recommendations to pray or any other duties to the Almighty?
Uh, no,....and didn't we already cover this? Bush asking the nation to pray is a request not a law.
Is it possible that God might dictate a specific religious duty to you but not dictate that same duty to me?
Yes.
Does the majority get to use the government to express its religion?
That depends on the nature of the expression. The majority does get to use the government, imo, to express it's values, and some aspects of it's religion in the sense of recognizing God. It does not get to use the government to coerce people into one religion, or to restrict other religions.
Is it Constitution for the State of California to make a law requiring that each elementary school class recite the pledge of allegiance to the flag (which includes what could be reasonably viewed as an affirmation of belief in God) once each day?
Yes, although children should be allowed to not participate if it violates their belief.
{Changed the damned "Re: the wiki article seems bogus" subtitle to "Adminnemooseus kills an irrelevant subtitle (shall I suspend anyone who "re's" this?)" - Adminnemooseus}
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 02-24-2006 07:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 6:41 PM FreddyFlash has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 7:35 PM randman has not replied
 Message 158 by FreddyFlash, posted 02-24-2006 9:22 PM randman has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 157 of 160 (290214)
02-24-2006 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by randman
02-24-2006 7:26 PM


sorry
Forgot the admonition for a new title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by randman, posted 02-24-2006 7:26 PM randman has not replied

  
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