Free will: an illusion

which part? choosing to reject? or the implication that it implies we choose to accept?can you explain why it doesn't follow in your view?

If there is no creator God then you are a biological machine and free will is an illusion. A machine deciding for itself that it has free will is its perogative. But there is no reason to trust the machinations of such an entity. It is churning out notions it must churn out. Discussion is pointless as I pointed outIf, on the other hand we are created and free-will is rendered an illusion by Gods all-knowing then we are created biological machines and discussion is pointless here too.

First we must decide whether we have free will or not (free will subject to boundaries and influence perhaps - but free will all the same). I don't discuss with machines.Furthermore, an acceptance of our having true free will (confined as above, perhaps) necessitates there being a creator God. Not necessarily all knowing (I haven't thought that far ahead), but if all-knowing, that factor cannot make our free will an illusion for the reasons already stated.

If no one is going to refute that position, then I agree discussion is pointless.

Whether or not there is a god or gods everyone's body is a biological machine. This is irrelevant. Why? This makes absolutely zero sense. I can choose to type this sentence right now... I have free will. The ability to decide you have free will means you have free will by definition. Sorry Ian, you just proved yourself wrong. This makes no sense at all. If an entity can make choices it has free will. What does trust have to do with anything? I hope you realize that you basically just proved the exact point you are arguing against.The only scenario under which there could be no free will is the one where an omniscient being or beings exist

CreaevolutionCheck out this wikipedia article.Benjamin Libet - Wikipedia

Do you believe in an all knowing God?
Do you believe we have free will?
I have not seen reasons stated showing why an all knowing God cannot make free will an illusion. can you demonstrate to me how this is not the case?

If anyone does refute it then you can present their argument without quoting them. I have accepted your offer to ignore other posters in this thread. When you have a refutation or decide you have a true free will let me know.Right now, I'm off to worship practiceLater Mook

ride safe

Because as Alex lifeson of Rush said in the song, aptly titled "Free will" Of course they even get that wrong on all the online lyrics web sites. Even the damn album cover has the lyrics wrong.And Christians think that all the words in the bible are accurate. Fat chance of that.
Even if they once were, they have (most likely) been warped and twisted beyond recognition by all the repeated re-writings and translation.Edited by PurpleYouko, : Added the words most likely so that it won't appear to be just another assertion.

Now you are getting it.
If we don't have free will (As implied by the existence of an omniscient God) then we are nothing more than characters in a great big book.
God can read it cover to cover as many times as he likes and exactly the same thing will happen each time.
Didn't you ever hear that joke about the football fan who complains to his mates that the Man united striker is an idiot because he still keeps missing that open goal in the replay?
If god is Omniscient then that's what we are. The entire universe is one dirty great replay that he can watch as many times as he likes.

Absolutely!
Finally you are getting it.
Everything is about decisions so without free will we are all pre-programmed automatons going through a meaningless series of meaningless actions. If your God knew, a thousand years ago, that I would be writing this message right now then what choice did I have. I might feel as if it is my choice but in reality it is beyond my power to be doing anything else right now. I am just an unthinking player in a big story. Doomed to do the same thing over and over each time somebody picks up the book.

Yes I am a biological machine. As such I am governed by universal laws which include things like indeterminism.
It is still hotly debatable whether the universe itself is 100% deterministic or not. If it is then we really and trully do NOT have free will since every sub-atomic particle that we are made up of is following a course of action laid down at the dawn of time.
If it is NOT deterministic then there is an inherrant randomness that may or may not be affected by our consciousnesses (whatever they are). In that case then just maybe we DO have free will.Being a machine (organic or mechanical) in no way implies lack of free will. Only existing in a fixed and 100% repeatable pattern will mean that. And the only way that can be implied is there is something or someone who is able to know all of time as your God is supposed to.He has already read the book and watched the movie so he knows exactly what each of us will be doing at any given time and place.Wonder how many times he has read the book or watched the instant replay?
Do you think he still gets pissed off when somebody makes the same mistake every time through?

No it doesn't.
There is absolutely no way that you can reach that conclusion by any valid logical process. It is simply not implied in any way shape or form. You haven't?
Then what the heck are you arguing with us about?
just remove "Omniscient" from your description of God and we have no problem. And there was me thinking we might be finally getting somewhere.
The "reasons already stated" make no sense whatsover.
They do not follow any form of logic that I can recognise.Edited by PurpleYouko, : forgot to comment on the rest of the post

Hope you aren't including little old me in that sweeping statement. After all it was you who invited me and Crevo into a discussion of this very topic.