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Author Topic:   how did our language derive from nothing?
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 83 (323267)
06-19-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Ragged
06-18-2006 10:35 PM


Re: quetion
My 2 nephews grew up tri-lingual. They seem to be doing fine. Like most people that can speak multiple languages, they can just switch back and forth without any problem.
People are most adaptable to changes when they are children. Trust me, letting the kids grow up in a multi-language environment will only do good for them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Ragged, posted 06-18-2006 10:35 PM Ragged has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 83 (323897)
06-20-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by fallacycop
06-20-2006 1:15 PM


Re: The grammar organ - is there one?
fallacycop writes
quote:
And yet, 5 year old kidds speak correctly.
I beg to differ. If you ever visit the United States, make sure to visit the backwatered sections of states like Alabama, Tennessee, or Mississippi. There, you'd find 10 year olds that are still talking in baby language (or whatever language they use there). I'm not talking about just the difference in accent. I'm talking about extremely poor grammar and disjointed sentences. Yet, they all understand each other very well and somehow can understand me very well. As a matter of fact, my 3 yr old nephew the other day said "Daddy car" while pointing at his dad's car. I think that's a lot better sentencing structure than what the 10 year old hicks and hillbillies use (humor intended).
I really don't think there is such a thing as a "grammar machine". I think people perceive on the common usage of grammar based on what they have heard throughout their lives.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by fallacycop, posted 06-20-2006 1:15 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by fallacycop, posted 06-20-2006 6:16 PM rgb has replied
 Message 73 by Ben!, posted 06-22-2006 3:37 AM rgb has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 83 (324120)
06-20-2006 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by fallacycop
06-20-2006 6:16 PM


Re: The grammar organ - is there one?
fallacycop writes
quote:
I find that hard to believe.
I'd like to know what makes you think my assessment was not entirely accurate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by fallacycop, posted 06-20-2006 6:16 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by fallacycop, posted 06-21-2006 10:07 PM rgb has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 83 (324128)
06-20-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by ramoss
06-20-2006 8:27 PM


Re: The grammar organ - is there one?
ramoss writes
quote:
The dialect in the southern states in the rural areas that are predominately black often is influenced by the lingquistic patterns of
africa.
After centuries of white influence and no contact with Mother Africa?
quote:
I would say that it the grammar patterns do exist, it just isn't the typical eurpopean/english patterns.
Some of my friends told me that what I heard was the typical street slangs of those areas. Even after I got down word by word what they were saying, I still couldn't make out what they were trying to say.
Funny story. I was in a bar one time in chatennooga (sp?) tennessee. There was this man that walked in and started talking with his friend. He was talking really really slowly. I tried to catch every word he was saying and I still couldn't understand what he said. So, I tapped on the shoulder of the guy next to me and ask him what that man just said, and the guy started telling me ....... Again, whatever it was it sounded like the man that just talked moments ago.
It amazes me that we "northerners" can't understand "them" but for some reason they can understand us pretty well. Why do you suppose that is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by ramoss, posted 06-20-2006 8:27 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by nwr, posted 06-20-2006 9:55 PM rgb has not replied
 Message 62 by ramoss, posted 06-21-2006 7:32 AM rgb has not replied
 Message 68 by fallacycop, posted 06-21-2006 10:12 PM rgb has not replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 83 (324685)
06-22-2006 1:03 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by fallacycop
06-21-2006 10:07 PM


Re: The grammar organ - is there one?
I said
quote:
If you ever visit the United States, make sure to visit the backwatered sections of states like Alabama, Tennessee, or Mississippi. There, you'd find 10 year olds that are still talking in baby language (or whatever language they use there). I'm not talking about just the difference in accent. I'm talking about extremely poor grammar and disjointed sentences.
You said
quote:
I find that hard to believe.
I am interpreting what you said as finding what I said hard to believe.
I, then, said
quote:
I'd like to know what makes you think my assessment was not entirely accurate.
You answered
quote:
Because kidds learn to speak the local dialect fluently elsewhere in the world. Why wouldn't those kids do it? May be you were expecting them to learn official english "grammar" instead of the local dialect. It seems that this wouldn't be a fair expectation.
You haven't answered my question at all. All I said was that these kids living in those areas speak in what appears to me to be broken English and disjointed sentences. You then said that you found it hard to believe that these kids were speaking the way I described it. Yet, now you are admitting that it was possible for these kids to have learned a different dialect. Then you went on to describe what you thought was my expectation. While what you said is true, I still don't see how that answered my question.
So, let me ask again. Why do you think my assessment of how these kids in those areas talk was not entirely accurate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by fallacycop, posted 06-21-2006 10:07 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by fallacycop, posted 06-22-2006 12:38 PM rgb has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 83 (324873)
06-22-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by fallacycop
06-22-2006 12:38 PM


Re: The grammar organ - is there one?
fallacycop writes
quote:
I think it is unfair to describe their sentences as being disjoint or ungrammatical. They are likely to be perfectly formed sentences acording to the local dialect grammar.
But they are disjointed and ungrammatical, based on proper English of course.
So, do you doubt that they talk that way or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by fallacycop, posted 06-22-2006 12:38 PM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by fallacycop, posted 06-23-2006 3:49 AM rgb has replied

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 83 (325347)
06-23-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by fallacycop
06-23-2006 3:49 AM


Re: The grammar organ - is there one?
fallacycop writes
quote:
What's the point in that?
Your position's always seemed to be that there's some kind of grammar machine in each person. Yet, we have a clear example that contradict this claim. What we consider to be grammatically correct, even in the same language, varies from one group to another. If there is such a grammar machine, shouldn't the grammar in a language be universal with all communities speaking that language?
I see ebonics as an example of what nwr has been trying to say, that grammar in a language is based on centuries of language evolution and not based on any particular grammar rule. Linguists try to impose these rules onto the language, but more often than not these rules just don't fit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by fallacycop, posted 06-23-2006 3:49 AM fallacycop has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by fallacycop, posted 06-24-2006 1:20 AM rgb has not replied

  
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