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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 300 (324329)
06-21-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by GDR
06-21-2006 10:35 AM


CS Lewis in "The Last Battle" writes:
Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted.
That's a great one. I've never read that before, thanks for posting it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 06-21-2006 10:35 AM GDR has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 300 (324333)
06-21-2006 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 9:14 AM


On what the Great Sacrifice was.
While it's true that a whole thread could be devoted to the issue of whether Jesus crucifixion was some payment for our sins, and that this thread is not the place to really hash that out, as part of my personal belief statement I think it is worthwhile to at least cover what it is I believe about that.
I do not see the crucifixion itself as some great payment for our sins. Afterall, there were at least two other people crucified the very same day and very same place as Jesus. In addition it would be an act of GOD paying Himself with Himself for something He was capable of doing even without payment.
The crucifixion is part of the story of Jesus' life, but I believe that He really was human during His time here with us before His death, and so He was going to die.
For me, the great significance is that GOD became Man, to live among us, as one of us, with all of the limitations and constraints of being human. Jesus very life and presence is the Great Sacrifice and it was to bring us the message that we all do start off saved. We do not start off sinners, we do not start off damned, we do not suffer from original sin, we are not Fallen, we are loved.
GOD became Man, and that is the Sacrifice. For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven.
Two parts.
GOD came down to teach us how to best live and to show us that we really are expected to live up to those charges He has given us. This is why when asked about what was really important He specifically chooses the Two Great Commandments. He goes on to add "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
When asked those questions he could have easily said "Worship Me", but He doesn't. There is nothing in those two related to professing faith, to worship, even related to belief, instead it is a call and command to action.
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 9:14 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 11:24 AM jar has replied
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 06-25-2006 10:48 AM jar has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 93 of 300 (324335)
06-21-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Brian
06-21-2006 5:55 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:
I am very familiar with the sheep and the goats teaching, it is a basic Sunday School lesson. I am also aware that the sheep and the goats story actually supports my view and undermines your claim.
Matthew 25 is going about FOLLOWERS of Jesus, not about followers of another faith. It is about people who profess to be a follower of Jesus but do not follow His teachings, which sounds familiar doesn’t it?
Sorry Brian but you are wrong.
Matthew 25 writes:
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
He talks about ALL the nations and he is choosing those who actually do the will of the father. What's the Father's will? To love God and to love your neighbour. To love God is to love all that is good and hate evil. Loving your neighbour is about loving others as you would have them love you.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 5:55 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 11:15 AM GDR has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 300 (324339)
06-21-2006 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by iano
06-21-2006 10:27 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Jesus never existed as God incarnate in your opinion. That is not, in your opinion true. You look at the evidence and conclude "No" - a mere sheep herder myth
Please point out where I have said that?
Once again you are misrepresenting what I have said.
You look at "Love God/love your neighbour" and conlude "true' in your opinion. True because it works for you - no matter who wrote the words.
No, not true, and a point I have addressed many times.
Love GOd and love others as you love yourself. The second part also has two requirements. You must first love yourself, know yourself, be honest about yourself. Only once you understand yourself can you love others.
Is that (as included in my explanation) true? Yes. In my opinion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 06-21-2006 10:27 AM iano has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 95 of 300 (324357)
06-21-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by GDR
06-21-2006 10:49 AM


Professing Christians in all Nations
Hi GDR,
I only have 2 mins and I wont be able to post until tomorrow now.
He talks about ALL the nations and he is choosing those who actually do the will of the father.
I think you need to read in context, it makes no sense to take this verse as relating to everyone in a nation. it is referring to those who have heard the gospel in those nations.
Think about it.
A wee aboriginal guy is up in front of Jesus, Jesus says to him that he didn't follow the gospel, the guy will reply that he has no idea what Jesus is talking about.
The sheep and the goats is a story about xians who profess to be xians but do not act as Jesus wanted them to. It makes no sense for the gathering to be anytihng other than those who heard the Word of Christ.
Think about Buddhist monks, say the Theravada tradition, who were fed and clothed by villagers, the monks didn't feed or clothe anyone, their entire time was spent preparing for enlightenment. How can they be saved?
More tomorrow, I have to work.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by GDR, posted 06-21-2006 10:49 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 06-21-2006 12:24 PM Brian has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 300 (324363)
06-21-2006 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
06-21-2006 10:47 AM


Re: On what the Great Sacrifice was.
Jesus very life and presence is the Great Sacrifice and it was to bring us the message that we all do start off saved. We do not start off sinners, we do not start off damned, we do not suffer from original sin, we are not Fallen, we are loved.
For us and for our salvation He came down from heaven.
If we start off saved, then what are we being salvaged from? The sins we choose aftarwards? Why would we need salvation if we are already saved?
Love GOD...
When asked those questions he could have easily said "Worship Me", but He doesn't. There is nothing in those two related to professing faith, to worship, even related to belief, instead it is a call and command to action.
Some might take the call to love as a request for worship, but when asked 'how' we love god, Jesus gave a fine explanation in Matt25, agree?
Its about what you do in how you treat others, yeah?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 10:47 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 06-21-2006 11:46 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 97 of 300 (324365)
06-21-2006 11:26 AM


Just for the fun of it.
In my story I mention going off to a boarding school. For any who might want to visit, you can see it here, right next to the Route 25 symbol.
If you follow Falls Road north just around the bend you will see the gate, and the gatehouses. There has been lots of construction since I was there and it is no longer a boarding school, but the buildings I mentioned are still there. You can see some of the other masters houses that were there when I was in the trees to the right (east) of the entrance, the stables also east of the driveway and the mansion just below the circle with the big oaks. The dorm was the tiny building on the northwest side of the mansion.
Edited by jar, : add better location id

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 300 (324378)
06-21-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 11:24 AM


Re: On what the Great Sacrifice was.
If we start off saved, then what are we being salvaged from? The sins we choose aftarwards? Why would we need salvation if we are already saved?
We are being told that we will be judged based on what we do. There is no "Get Outta Hell Free" card.
The point is that I do not believe we start off damned as many Christians do.
Some might take the call to love as a request for worship, but when asked 'how' we love god, Jesus gave a fine explanation in Matt25, agree?
Its about what you do in how you treat others, yeah?
Yup, and how you treat yourself. Notice that in that part of Matthew 25 there is no direct mention of belief, and the only indirect mention is in regards to the Goats. So folk take the position that only the followers of Jesus are included in the passage, but that is not what it says, and does not make sense to me just from reading it.
In the passage it says ALL the world is gathered, all nations. But there is IMHO and even clearer indication that it is not followers who are gathered, but everybody.
The Sheep are shocked that they are accepted.
If the Sheep had been followers, Christians, then why would they be surprised?
Remember, you are expected to be honest about yourself too. That means the good and the bad parts. But GOD also knows that we are human, that we will screw up. Remember part of the Confirmation Service?
Bishop: Will you persevere in resisting evil, and, whenever you fall into sin, repent and return to the Lord?
People: I will, with God's help.
Bishop: Will you proclaim by word and example the Good News of God in Christ?
People: I will, with God's help.
Bishop: Will you seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself?
People: I will, with God's help.
Bishop: Will you strive for justice and peace among all people, and respect the dignity of every human being?
People: I will, with God's help.
Look at the terms, they are all action words, things that you do. Persevere, strive, seek, return, repent, proclaim, respect; things you can do. It acknowledges that there will be many times you will fail, but charges you to try.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 11:24 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 99 of 300 (324393)
06-21-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Brian
06-21-2006 11:15 AM


Re: Professing Christians in all Nations
Brian writes:
I think you need to read in context, it makes no sense to take this verse as relating to everyone in a nation. it is referring to those who have heard the gospel in those nations.
I disagree completely. He is talking all of mankind and that is taking it in context. You quoted John 3:16 earlier. When the Bible is taken in complete context I contend that when it says "that whosever believes in him shall not perish", it is saying that it is saying that "whosoever believes in what he stands for which is love, truth, charity, etc. As I said earlier it is about loving goodness and hating evil.
Brian writes:
Think about it.
A wee aboriginal guy is up in front of Jesus, Jesus says to him that he didn't follow the gospel, the guy will reply that he has no idea what Jesus is talking about.
The sheep and the goats is a story about xians who profess to be xians but do not act as Jesus wanted them to. It makes no sense for the gathering to be anytihng other than those who heard the Word of Christ.
Think about Buddhist monks, say the Theravada tradition, who were fed and clothed by villagers, the monks didn't feed or clothe anyone, their entire time was spent preparing for enlightenment. How can they be saved?
Here is quote written by Paul from the book of Romans
Romans 2 writes:
5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
I'll repeat this for emphasis.
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous."
God has given all of us the ability to choose Him or to choose self. Becoming a Christian is a matter of faith, and my faith and my experience tells me by accepting Christ as Lord I have made a spiritual connection with Christ so that my awareness of the person that He wants me to be is made more acute.
This does not make me more righteous in the eyes of God that someone of another or no faith but it does make more righteous than I would have been without taking that step in faith.
I'm gone for the rest of the day as well. I'm off to visit "The Excited States of America", and some grandsons down there. Fun day.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Brian, posted 06-21-2006 11:15 AM Brian has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 100 of 300 (325953)
06-25-2006 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brian
06-20-2006 1:01 PM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
Brain, I'm an atheist.... but to play devil's advocate....
Jar may well be a Xian, but his flavour of Christianity is incompatible with all known definitions.
Why couldn't they ALL be correct? God is infinite correct? Why could he not be many things to different people?
I think Jar's point (and tell me if I'm wrong Jar) is that religions are just human understandings of something that by definition can not be understood by humans. It's like trying to describe the state of every atom in the universe

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:01 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:15 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 101 of 300 (325955)
06-25-2006 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by jar
06-20-2006 6:30 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
When you try to treat others as you would like to be treated, everybody wins.
Unless you are a masochist.... hehehe
b) how something working makes it true? My lightswitch works - does that make it true?
Kind of like evolution?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 6:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:26 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 102 of 300 (325958)
06-25-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-25-2006 12:21 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Well, that came up earlier.
Remember that it is a two part command, love others as you love yourself. The first part is that you need to love your self. The second it to love others as you love your self. The fact that you might like to be hurt does not mean that it is right to hurt others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-25-2006 12:21 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-25-2006 12:29 AM jar has not replied
 Message 104 by GDR, posted 06-25-2006 1:29 AM jar has replied
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 06-25-2006 3:05 AM jar has replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5834 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 103 of 300 (325960)
06-25-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
06-25-2006 12:26 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Well, that came up earlier.
Remember that it is a two part command, love others as you love yourself. The first part is that you need to love your self. The second it to love others as you love your self. The fact that you might like to be hurt does not mean that it is right to hurt others.
I hear ya man... just making a bad joke

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:26 AM jar has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 104 of 300 (325988)
06-25-2006 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
06-25-2006 12:26 AM


How much love?
jar writes:
Remember that it is a two part command, love others as you love yourself. The first part is that you need to love your self. The second it to love others as you love your self.
I know it says that, but I think this quote is more consistent with Christ's teachings on love, taken in the context of the whole NT.
John 13:34 writes:
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.
If we are to love others as Christ loved us we have to remember that Christ died for us. Christ put everyone else ahead of himself.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 9:59 AM GDR has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 105 of 300 (326032)
06-25-2006 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
06-25-2006 12:26 AM


Re: Jesus Divinity
Remember that it is a two part command, love others as you love yourself.
That is obviously not a two-part command but a command based on a given, that we all love ourselves.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 12:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 06-25-2006 10:20 AM Faith has replied
 Message 120 by nator, posted 06-26-2006 4:52 PM Faith has replied

  
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