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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 300 (326623)
06-26-2006 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by iano
06-26-2006 7:53 PM


iano writes:
Think of it as your mother telling you to "brush your teeth" then when they start falling out of your head, realising she was making sense.
The problem with that analogy *ahem* is that somebody, at some point in time, had to figure it out for themselves - i.e. without external guidance. If that person can do it, why can't anybody else do it? Why does anybody need the external "nudge"? And if one human being figures out one thing and another human being figures out something else, why do we need to pretend that that knowledge came from "outside"?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 7:53 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 8:33 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 152 of 300 (326628)
06-26-2006 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
06-26-2006 8:28 PM


When was there a time in which there was no external guidance. In your opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 06-26-2006 8:28 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 06-26-2006 8:56 PM iano has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 153 of 300 (326636)
06-26-2006 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by Faith
06-26-2006 5:15 PM


Re: Jesus Divinity
quote:
The way everyone loves him/herself ought to be pretty obvious. We all look for comfort and try to avoid pain, we feel miserable when our egos are hurt etc. Pretty ordinary obvious stuff I would think.
But that is more, to me, just self preservation.
Actually loving oneself; regarding oneself with respect, generosity, fondness, and admiration...cherishing oneself...accepting oneself unconditionally, flaws and all, while encouraging and supporting oneself to improve where one sees a need...
This is love for oneself. It exactly the way that one loves another person.
This, frankly, is not the attitude I see displayed by most of the Christians I have encountered on this board and others.

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 Message 125 by Faith, posted 06-26-2006 5:15 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 154 of 300 (326640)
06-26-2006 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by iano
06-26-2006 8:33 PM


iano writes:
When was there a time in which there was no external guidance. In your opinion?
There was never any "external guidance". It's all ours all the time - some individual, some collective. That's why atheists can behave as well as Christians - if not better.
It's all for our benefit, not some external entity's. That's what the knowledge of good and evil is all about. We have it - it's our own responsibility to use it.
Jesus came to tell us to trust our internal guidance system and not to trust the religionists who claim to have all the answers.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 8:33 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by iano, posted 06-26-2006 9:05 PM ringo has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 155 of 300 (326642)
06-26-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
06-26-2006 8:56 PM


Jesus came to tell us to trust our internal guidance system and not to trust the religionists who claim to have all the answers.
I just got a smile out of imagining each and every one of our "internal guidance systems" being tied to a piece of cable, the other end of which gets rawl-bolted into the earths surface. Then all left to "trust our guidance systems".
"All you ever wanted to know about the Earths core but were afraid to ask"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 06-26-2006 8:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by ringo, posted 06-26-2006 9:34 PM iano has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 156 of 300 (326656)
06-26-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by iano
06-26-2006 9:05 PM


iano writes:
... each and every one of our "internal guidance systems" being tied to a piece of cable, the other end of which gets rawl-bolted into the earths surface.
You've got it wrong. Our umbilical cords are attached to each other, not to anything external.
Maybe you've heard of "Love thy neighbour as thyself"? Part of that includes having respect for thy neighbour's internal guidance system.
We can only trust the internal guidance systems because there are so many external ones. If you don't trust a Muslim's, why should he trust yours? Why should I trust yours, for that matter?

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 157 of 300 (326738)
06-27-2006 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by jar
06-26-2006 1:40 PM


Love God, how can I do that?
Hi Jar,
I think GOD's will is really pretty simple; Love GOD and Love others as you love yourself.
At Judgement I think each individual will be judged based on how well he or she tried to carry out that will.
Can you tell me how an atheist is capable of 'loving God'?
Brian.
Edited by Brian, : formatting error

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by jar, posted 06-26-2006 1:40 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 06-27-2006 5:52 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 158 of 300 (326742)
06-27-2006 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 9:06 AM


Re: Invalid christian teaching?
They aren't neccessarily different.
They are according to the Bible.
Its about looking at the New Testament as a whole and not trying to pick out bits that might seem different than the whole.
Isn't it about looking at the Bible as a whole? The New testament is just one part of the Bible.
The whole of the Bible suggests to me that Yahweh is a jealous God and doesn't take too kindly to people worshipping false idols. In fact, the OT gives a lot of examples of how God treats people who worship other gods, even the Israelites were punished a few times for this.
The idea that worshipping other gods will result in salvation is inconsitent with the biblical texts.
I want you to see another christian's opinion on salvation, namely mine, that not believing that Jesus is god does not forfeit your ticket to heaven. You dan't have to believe that Jesus was god to accept salvation.
Believing in Jesus' divinity is only ONE factor that leads to salvation. Belief in His victory over death is another one, belief that He died so that your sins can be forgiven is another.
Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
IMO, there is a mountain of biblical evidence that is being ignored in the 'all will be saved' camp.
Anyway, if all can be saved by following their own faith, what is the point of Jesus at all? What is the point of Jesus charging the apostles to spread the Gospel if their possible audiences could already be saved by following their own faith?
The God of the Bible is essentially a barbarian, he is a jealous and spiteful God who has no qualms about slaughtering countless women and children, why should His character change to suit you?
Believing that you have to believe that Jesus is god to get to heaven is not a requirement of christianity.
It isn't a requirement of your Christianity maybe.
Brian.

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 Message 83 by New Cat's Eye, posted 06-21-2006 9:06 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 159 of 300 (326816)
06-27-2006 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by GDR
06-21-2006 10:35 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
All of the quotes that you give from the Bible tell us just who it is that does the saving. It doesn't exclude others although I agree you can come up with verses that sound more exclusive. However the Bible has to be read in context.
I have read these verses many times and really cannot see how you come to your conclusion. I mean how explicit does it have to be?
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Belief in the Son is paramount here, it doesn’t say belief in the son or in Allah or in Buddha or in Brahma. How can this verse be taken any other way? I am genuinely interested.
Jar talked about this earlier. CS Lewis in the book
Sorry, I find Lewis excruciatingly boring.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by GDR, posted 06-21-2006 10:35 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by GDR, posted 06-27-2006 1:46 PM Brian has replied
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 10:53 PM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 160 of 300 (326830)
06-27-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by New Cat's Eye
06-21-2006 9:14 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
What about someone who puts Jesus' teaching into practice but does not 'say' they are christian?
They are damned for all eternity.
I'd say they can go to heaven.
Pity it isn't your choice mate.
You think that Jesus' teaches that they can't?
Yes.
I don't think you have to be calling yourself a christian or even actually believe Jesus was god. Its about following what the teachings are (the will of father), not what name you give god.
How do we know what the will of the father is?
If a muslim calls god by the wrong name but lives a life that follow what the teachings of Jesus are
But they don't follow the teachings of Jesus. How can they follow His teachings when they don't believe God is a Father?
don't you think they can go to heaven?
They may well, but it won't be through anything Jesus preached.
You think that Jesus teaches that they can't?
Well since Jesus was dead for about 600 years before Muhammad was born it would be difficult
Brian.

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 161 of 300 (326840)
06-27-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Brian
06-27-2006 12:43 PM


Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believe in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Belief in the Son is paramount here, it doesn’t say belief in the son or in Allah or in Buddha or in Brahma. How can this verse be taken any other way? I am genuinely interested.
I know that I posted this quote from the Bible earlier but I want to repeat it in the same post with John 3:16 to try and answer your question to the best of my understanding.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
I realize that John 3:16 is thrown around extensively by some evangelical Christians, (I do consider myself an evangelical Christian), but I am convinced that a belief in the son of God is not the same as believing that the sky is blue.
When I say I believe in someone as a political leader for example I am not saying that I believe that he exists or that I believe something about his/her lineage. I am saying that I believe in what he stands for and espouses.
I therefore contend that someone who truly loves joy and hates evil, loves joy in his fellow creatures and hates to see others in sorrow, and is prepared to sacrifice the self for the benefit of others believes in Jesus even though they may not know Him by name.
Brian writes:
Sorry, I find Lewis excruciatingly boring.
I would imagine that if I had come to the conclusion that the Christian message was false I would find Lewis boring as well. As it is however I find him to be fascinating.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 12:43 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:59 PM GDR has replied
 Message 211 by lfen, posted 06-29-2006 4:42 PM GDR has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4958 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 162 of 300 (326843)
06-27-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by GDR
06-27-2006 1:46 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
But these people still BELIEVED that they were following Christ, they just didn;t do it properly. There is no mention here that EVERYONE who is nice to others are the ones to be saved?
Do you have a problem with God condemning people to hell? Not everyone will be saved according to Christianity, so Jesus did create many people in the knowledge that He will send them to Hell some day.
therefore contend that someone who truly loves joy and hates evil, loves joy in his fellow creatures and hates to see others in sorrow, and is prepared to sacrifice the self for the benefit of others believes in Jesus even though they may not know Him by name.
All you are doing is really forcing your view of Christianity on to people who don't believe in it.
For example, I live certainly live a life that you describe, but I think the God of the Bible is a fictitious character whose literary nature is one of a bloodthirsty barbarian. I certainly wouldn't want salvation from that creature. So, how do I get saved?
Also, what makes you think that God hates evil and hates to see others in sorrow, this certainly isn't the picture painted of God in the Bible.
All this be nicey nice to others and you are saved really begs the question of why was Jesus even born?
If Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and all other people on earth can be saved through being a nice person, then there is no point in Jesus.
As it is however I find him to be fascinating.
Different strokes for different folks.
Brian.

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 Message 175 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:48 AM Brian has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 163 of 300 (326872)
06-27-2006 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Brian
06-27-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Brian writes:
Do you have a problem with God condemning people to hell? Not everyone will be saved according to Christianity, so Jesus did create many people in the knowledge that He will send them to Hell some day.
If you read the exchange I had in this thread with jar you will see that I do believe in Hell. However it isn't as simple as God sitting as judge and telling the bad guys to go south and the good guys north. (Being in Canada that has a certain charm. )
I believe that in the end we choose between giving ourselves over to God or we choose to cling to the the things that bind us to love of self, and my guess would be the primary thing that binds us to self is pride.
Brian writes:
For example, I live certainly live a life that you describe, but I think the God of the Bible is a fictitious character whose literary nature is one of a bloodthirsty barbarian. I certainly wouldn't want salvation from that creature. So, how do I get saved?
It seems strange for a non believer to find it necessary to be a Biblical literalist. That is one of the primary reasons that I am a Christian is because I am secure in the knowledge that God is a God of love. I am fully aware that with a literal reading of the OT you can find evidence to the contrary but I personnaly look behind the literal telling of the stories and find what I believe to be a greater truth than can be found in a literal reading.
Brian writes:
All this be nicey nice to others and you are saved really begs the question of why was Jesus even born?
If Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and all other people on earth can be saved through being a nice person, then there is no point in Jesus.
I do believe that by giving our lives to Christ binds us into a relationship with him spiritually and through that connection we are nudged in the way we should go. For reasons beyond my understanding God found it necessary to suffer and die for us on the cross. There is a great deal of both the physical and the metaphysical world that are beyond my understanding. These are issues I take on faith, and also occasionally on personal experience.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:59 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 164 of 300 (326920)
06-27-2006 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Brian
06-27-2006 7:25 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Can you tell me how an atheist is capable of 'loving God'?
By trying to do your best, trying to do what is right and not do what is wrong.
You don't have to know GOD, to believe in GOD, to worship GOD, just try to do what is right.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 7:25 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 4:18 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 165 of 300 (327001)
06-27-2006 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Brian
06-27-2006 12:43 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I love it. Brian has been right on target for days now arguing the truths of Biblical Christianity against Catholic Scientist and jar and GDR -- and I forget if there were any other of the liberal persuasion he's answered. Doing a terrific job, although he himself
rejects and apparently hates it all with a passion. I've been very impressed. How odd to be in the position of agreeing with Brian about anything whatever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 12:43 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:21 AM Faith has replied

  
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