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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 166 of 300 (327005)
06-27-2006 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Brian
06-27-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
But these people still BELIEVED that they were following Christ, they just didn;t do it properly. There is no mention here that EVERYONE who is nice to others are the ones to be saved?
...All this be nicey nice to others and you are saved really begs the question of why was Jesus even born?
If Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and all other people on earth can be saved through being a nice person, then there is no point in Jesus.
Making all the right points here. Fun to read.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:59 PM Brian has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 167 of 300 (327016)
06-27-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Brian
06-27-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
If Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and all other people on earth can be saved through being a nice person, then there is no point in Jesus.
Playing devil's advocate again... Why couldn't god/god(s) be many things to many people? Maybe he/she/it/them finds it useful to present messages in different ways to different peoples.
It could appear very contradictory to us humans, but again we are placing human restriction on a supposedly infinite entity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:59 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 168 of 300 (327055)
06-28-2006 4:18 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by jar
06-27-2006 5:52 PM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
So, "to love God" is not a command?
Doesn't this contradict your earlier staements that we are to love God and others as we love ourselves?
What you are saying is not a command, a command is something you are told to do, you are having us atheists passively love God, which doesn't fit your criteria.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by jar, posted 06-27-2006 5:52 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 8:57 AM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 169 of 300 (327093)
06-28-2006 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Brian
06-28-2006 4:18 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
So, "to love God" is not a command?
What makes you think it is not a command?
Doesn't this contradict your earlier staements that we are to love God and others as we love ourselves?
No.
What you are saying is not a command, a command is something you are told to do, you are having us atheists passively love God, which doesn't fit your criteria.
In what way doesn't it fit? When you do what is right, and try not to do what is wrong, GOD is pleased. And far from being some passive act, it is a love totally built on doing. YOU Are told what to do, do right and try not to do wrong.
GOD doesn't care about singing or praising or folk shout Her name, Loving GOD is living.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 4:18 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:09 AM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 170 of 300 (327138)
06-28-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by jar
06-28-2006 8:57 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
What makes you think it is not a command?
Because you say that the atheist is fulfilling this 'command' passively, the atheist is unaware of this command.
If I command you to do something that you don't know about, and you do it, how can I possibly claim that you followed my command?
Did you know that I commanded you to reply to this message before 02.00pm?
In what way doesn't it fit?
The atheist doesn't know about the command to love God, but you are saying they fulfill it anyway, it doesn't make sense.
And far from being some passive act, it is a love totally built on doing.
How can it not be a passive participation if you don't know about the command to love God?
YOU Are told what to do, do right and try not to do wrong.
Yes, and according to you we are also charged to love God, I don;t believe in God, I am unaware of this command, yet I fulfill it?
Also, believing what is right or wrong can be very different depending on your faith.
GOD doesn't care about singing or praising or folk shout Her name.
Tell the Israelites that.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 8:57 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 11:59 AM Brian has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 171 of 300 (327141)
06-28-2006 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
06-25-2006 12:13 AM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
Why couldn't they ALL be correct?
They could well all be correct, but that particular faith wouldn't be called Christianity. Christianity is exclusivist.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-25-2006 12:13 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 172 of 300 (327145)
06-28-2006 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Faith
06-27-2006 10:53 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I don't hate anything with a passion, but I do think Christianity is absurd, but then again I think most religions are absurd. Most of my comments about Jesus and Christianity should be taken with a pinch of salt.
With that said, I do think the members mentioned are far too liberal with the text, they seem a bit too keen on making God into a fluffy old man who loves everyone, even those who reject His son. I do not see any scriptural evidence to support this. I also do not see any gratitude for the sacrifice Jesus made, in fact, at least one 'Christian' doesn't even think Jesus had to exist!
I also do not see the problem of Sin being addressed, I do not see the commandments being followed either, and I see St. paul's teachings being almost completely ignored.
It is a nice cosy wee faith that is being described, but it isn't Christianity.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 06-27-2006 10:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 06-28-2006 11:29 AM Brian has not replied
 Message 176 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:58 AM Brian has replied
 Message 206 by lfen, posted 06-29-2006 11:10 AM Brian has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 173 of 300 (327149)
06-28-2006 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Brian
06-28-2006 11:21 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I agree completely with your assessment of the liberal Christians. I continue to be astonished at my agreement with you. Please, carry on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:21 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 11:37 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 180 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 12:07 PM Faith has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 174 of 300 (327154)
06-28-2006 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
06-28-2006 11:29 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
He has clearly overtaken Robin as the best unbelieving evangelist at EvC.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 06-28-2006 11:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 175 of 300 (327158)
06-28-2006 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Brian
06-27-2006 1:59 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
But these people still BELIEVED that they were following Christ, they just didn;t do it properly. There is no mention here that EVERYONE who is nice to others are the ones to be saved?
No but it sure sounds like being nice to others is important.
Matthew 25:31-46 writes:
The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Brian, posted 06-27-2006 1:59 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:08 PM deerbreh has replied
 Message 198 by Brian, posted 06-29-2006 3:36 AM deerbreh has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 176 of 300 (327161)
06-28-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Brian
06-28-2006 11:21 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It is a nice cosy wee faith that is being described, but it isn't Christianity.
It is the height of arrogance for one who isn't willing to practice a religion to tell others how they are doing it wrong. You have created a cartoon Christianity in your mind and decided no one is living up to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:21 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:04 PM deerbreh has not replied
 Message 179 by Faith, posted 06-28-2006 12:07 PM deerbreh has not replied
 Message 200 by Brian, posted 06-29-2006 6:03 AM deerbreh has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 177 of 300 (327162)
06-28-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Brian
06-28-2006 11:09 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Because you say that the atheist is fulfilling this 'command' passively, the atheist is unaware of this command.
If I command you to do something that you don't know about, and you do it, how can I possibly claim that you followed my command?
Did you know that I commanded you to reply to this message before 02.00pm?
I believe that GOD reaches evry heart, even those who are unaware of Her. If I did respond in your time frame, even if unaware of it, I will have fulfilled your desires.
All that GOD wants is for folk to try to do what is right and to try not to do what is wrong.
The atheist doesn't know about the command to love God, but you are saying they fulfill it anyway, it doesn't make sense.
Perhaps not yet, but maybe one day you will understand.
How can it not be a passive participation if you don't know about the command to love God?
Because loving GOD is an action, not words or beliefs or acknowledgement. It is the results that count, what you do, not why you do it.
Yes, and according to you we are also charged to love God, I don;t believe in God, I am unaware of this command, yet I fulfill it?
Also, believing what is right or wrong can be very different depending on your faith.
If you try to do what is right, and try not to do what is wrong, then yes, you do fulfill the commandment. When you are judged (I know you don't believe you will be judged but I do believe you will be judged, it is a statement of belief you know), you will be judged based on your behavior. If during your life you really did try to do what is right, tried not to do what is wrong, were sorry when you failed and tried to do better in the future, then GOD will know it.
And yes, what is right may at times depend on ones Faith. But that is but one of the variables. Deciding what is right and wrong will always be a difficult decision make with insufficient information, without completely considering all the factors and within the limitations all humans face. GOD knows that. He does not expect perfection.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Brian, posted 06-28-2006 11:09 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Brian, posted 06-30-2006 3:50 PM jar has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 178 of 300 (327165)
06-28-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
There are a few Christians around here who think Brian representation is anything but cartoonish

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:58 AM deerbreh has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 179 of 300 (327166)
06-28-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It is the height of arrogance for one who isn't willing to practice a religion to tell others how they are doing it wrong. You have created a cartoon Christianity in your mind and decided no one is living up to it.
Well, here I must defend my arch-enemy Brian again. This is no cartoon. He's got it right. He's said very little in this argument that a traditionalist can't wholeheartedly "amen." He knows what the traditionalist churches preach, and there are many of us out here; it's not like he is this lone arrogant judge, he's arguing from what he knows. He knows it academically rather than from faith, but there is no doubt that he knows it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:58 AM deerbreh has not replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 180 of 300 (327167)
06-28-2006 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
06-28-2006 11:29 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I agree completely with your assessment of the liberal Christians. I continue to be astonished at my agreement with you. Please, carry on.
Et tu Brute?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 06-28-2006 11:29 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 06-28-2006 12:41 PM deerbreh has replied

  
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