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Administrator (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 2073 From: The Universe Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Belief Statement - jar | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
No but it sure sounds like being nice to others is important. I have wondered frequently about whether this passage describes good deeds as being the cause of the sheep being deemed sheep or whether the good works were a consequence of them being sheep. It is not clear which it is. If the latter then the good works follow as a result of sheephood. In which case 'important' is not the right term to apply to the deeds. What is important is can you say "Baaa..." Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I have wondered frequently about whether this passage describes good deeds as being the cause of the sheep being deemed sheep or whether the good works were a consequence of them being sheep. It is not clear which it is. If the latter then the good works follow as a result of sheephood. In which case 'important' is not the right term to apply to the deeds. What is important is can you say "Baaa..." Actually I think that is pretty clear in the passge. The sheep are surprised to be selected. Would someone who is knowingly a follower of Christ be surprised to be selected? On the otherhand, the goats are surprised they are not selected. They seem to be followers of Christ, ones who thought they were in. Hell I imagine will be full of Christians while heaven I imagine will be full of atheists. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2918 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
I have wondered frequently about whether this passage describes good deeds as being the cause of the sheep being deemed sheep or whether the good works were a consequence of them being sheep. I think it is both. Jesus says "follow me." If you are one of his sheep you will be willing to obey. But the fact that you are following him is also an indicater that you are one of his sheep. on edit: Another way of saying this is that God looks on the heart. Your heart may be in the right place even though you may not be able to articulate the "correct" belief that some Christians (and Brian) might think is necessary. Edited by deerbreh, : additional comment.
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
What about the sheep who don't follow the shepherd but who wander off and get themselves entangled in briars. The ones who the shepherd doesn't desert?
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 2918 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
What about the sheep who don't follow the shepherd but who wander off and get themselves entangled in briars. The ones who the shepherd doesn't desert? What about them? You answered your own question. Jesus goes and gets them. Edited by AdminJar, : fix code
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
So following is not central to salvation?
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Et tu Brute? ???
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats. I don't know whether to say or I guess I'll say both.
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nwr Member Posts: 6410 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.
One does not do the "prescribed good things" in order to pass the judgement day test. That's the fallacy of salvation by works. One does the good things because that's the right thing to do. One does them out of one's own self-respect, not as an insurance policy for the future. That's how I understand jar's theology.
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Thats all very well for the person who doesn't know that the good things they do happen to be the prescribed things that will result in their heading into the kingdom. The trouble arises when one knows what the good things are which will result in kingdom entry. And in knowing what they are, somehow forgetting what they are so as to be a surprised sheep on that day. Jar cannot be surprised and cannot thus - according to his own theology - be a sheep.
Neither is he doing anyone any favors by telling them his gospel Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 420 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats. If there is a thought in there I can't quite make it out. I have no idea what a prescribed good thing might be so I doubt that anyone does such things. I believe we all start off saved, no one has Damned stamped on their foreheads. You do not earn salvation, that was given, freely given by GOD to all mankind. But there is more to the story. GOD also gave us the ability to know right from wrong, to make moral judgements. Like all the abilities given by GOD, She expects us to use them. We are charged to try to do right, and to try not to do wrong, not for salvation but because it is the right thing to do. Salvation is not a realy big thing. For almost everybody, IMHO everything that ever lived, it is a done deal. The thing that will get one assigned to the Goat pen will be acts of wilfull wrong doing and wilfull ignorance. It will be the intentional and continued misuse of GODs gifts, of ignoring GOD's charge for us to try to do right and not do what is wrong that will be judged. I believe that what will not be excused come judgment day is intentionally doing harm to others in GOD's name. Those Christians (and I specifically address this to Christians because they are the ones doing evil in GOD's name) that are exclusionary, that oppress homosexuals, that try to keep children in ignorance by preaching and teaching Biblical Creationism, those who condemn GOD's own children simply because they worship differently or call Her Allah, they will be judged as Goats. Those who have tried to do what is right, and tried not to do what is wrong, who have repented for failures and tried to do better in the future just because that is the right thing to do, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Satanist, Atheist or Agnostic well be welcomed. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Heathen Member (Idle past 1309 days) Posts: 1067 From: Brizzle Joined: |
So if 'Salvation by Faith Alone' is true, What happens a christian who does not live as a christian? decides to murder, rape, steal, lie, cheat, be proud, covet etc. etc.?
Do they recieve any punishment for their actions? if so... can they be seen as have a kind of Salvation by works outlook inorder to avoid this punishment? Or, Do they get off scott-free, penthouse at the Hotel Pearly gates, gold member status, regardless of their actions?
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nwr Member Posts: 6410 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
Neither is he doing anyone any favors by telling them his gospel
I would suggest that you do something about the beam in your own eye, before you worry about the mote in jar's eye.
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SuperNintendo Chalmers Member (Idle past 5860 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: |
I agree....
So if Hitler believes and has faith he gets salvation while Ghandi is left out because he doesn't believe? Salvation by faith = silly. Why the hell would god care if someone believes in him/her/it/them. It's like me caring if an ant believes in me
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