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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 181 of 300 (327169)
06-28-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 11:48 AM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
No but it sure sounds like being nice to others is important.
I have wondered frequently about whether this passage describes good deeds as being the cause of the sheep being deemed sheep or whether the good works were a consequence of them being sheep. It is not clear which it is. If the latter then the good works follow as a result of sheephood. In which case 'important' is not the right term to apply to the deeds. What is important is can you say "Baaa..."
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 11:48 AM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 12:18 PM iano has replied
 Message 183 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 12:26 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 300 (327173)
06-28-2006 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by iano
06-28-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I have wondered frequently about whether this passage describes good deeds as being the cause of the sheep being deemed sheep or whether the good works were a consequence of them being sheep. It is not clear which it is. If the latter then the good works follow as a result of sheephood. In which case 'important' is not the right term to apply to the deeds. What is important is can you say "Baaa..."
Actually I think that is pretty clear in the passge. The sheep are surprised to be selected. Would someone who is knowingly a follower of Christ be surprised to be selected?
On the otherhand, the goats are surprised they are not selected. They seem to be followers of Christ, ones who thought they were in.
Hell I imagine will be full of Christians while heaven I imagine will be full of atheists.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:55 PM jar has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 183 of 300 (327175)
06-28-2006 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by iano
06-28-2006 12:08 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I have wondered frequently about whether this passage describes good deeds as being the cause of the sheep being deemed sheep or whether the good works were a consequence of them being sheep.
I think it is both. Jesus says "follow me." If you are one of his sheep you will be willing to obey. But the fact that you are following him is also an indicater that you are one of his sheep.
on edit: Another way of saying this is that God looks on the heart. Your heart may be in the right place even though you may not be able to articulate the "correct" belief that some Christians (and Brian) might think is necessary.
Edited by deerbreh, : additional comment.

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 Message 181 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:29 PM deerbreh has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 184 of 300 (327176)
06-28-2006 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
What about the sheep who don't follow the shepherd but who wander off and get themselves entangled in briars. The ones who the shepherd doesn't desert?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 12:26 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 12:32 PM iano has replied

  
deerbreh
Member (Idle past 2892 days)
Posts: 882
Joined: 06-22-2005


Message 185 of 300 (327177)
06-28-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by iano
06-28-2006 12:29 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
What about the sheep who don't follow the shepherd but who wander off and get themselves entangled in briars. The ones who the shepherd doesn't desert?
What about them? You answered your own question. Jesus goes and gets them.
Edited by AdminJar, : fix code

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 Message 184 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:29 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:35 PM deerbreh has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 186 of 300 (327180)
06-28-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 12:32 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
So following is not central to salvation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 12:32 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by deerbreh, posted 07-01-2006 9:09 PM iano has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 300 (327182)
06-28-2006 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by deerbreh
06-28-2006 12:07 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Et tu Brute?
???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by deerbreh, posted 06-28-2006 12:07 PM deerbreh has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 188 of 300 (327188)
06-28-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by jar
06-28-2006 12:18 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 12:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Faith, posted 06-28-2006 1:01 PM iano has not replied
 Message 190 by nwr, posted 06-28-2006 1:36 PM iano has replied
 Message 192 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 2:12 PM iano has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 189 of 300 (327190)
06-28-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
06-28-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.
I don't know whether to say or
I guess I'll say both.

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 Message 188 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:55 PM iano has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 190 of 300 (327201)
06-28-2006 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
06-28-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.
One does not do the "prescribed good things" in order to pass the judgement day test. That's the fallacy of salvation by works.
One does the good things because that's the right thing to do. One does them out of one's own self-respect, not as an insurance policy for the future.
That's how I understand jar's theology.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:55 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 1:55 PM nwr has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 191 of 300 (327216)
06-28-2006 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by nwr
06-28-2006 1:36 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Thats all very well for the person who doesn't know that the good things they do happen to be the prescribed things that will result in their heading into the kingdom. The trouble arises when one knows what the good things are which will result in kingdom entry. And in knowing what they are, somehow forgetting what they are so as to be a surprised sheep on that day. Jar cannot be surprised and cannot thus - according to his own theology - be a sheep.
Neither is he doing anyone any favors by telling them his gospel
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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 Message 190 by nwr, posted 06-28-2006 1:36 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Heathen, posted 06-28-2006 2:26 PM iano has not replied
 Message 194 by nwr, posted 06-28-2006 2:27 PM iano has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 192 of 300 (327222)
06-28-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by iano
06-28-2006 12:55 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
It must be a real head-wrecker to go around doing the prescribed good things whilst all the while remaining unknowing that one is doing the prescribed good things in order that one can be surprised that one did the prescribed good things come the day of the sheep and goats.
If there is a thought in there I can't quite make it out.
I have no idea what a prescribed good thing might be so I doubt that anyone does such things.
I believe we all start off saved, no one has Damned stamped on their foreheads.
You do not earn salvation, that was given, freely given by GOD to all mankind. But there is more to the story. GOD also gave us the ability to know right from wrong, to make moral judgements. Like all the abilities given by GOD, She expects us to use them. We are charged to try to do right, and to try not to do wrong, not for salvation but because it is the right thing to do.
Salvation is not a realy big thing. For almost everybody, IMHO everything that ever lived, it is a done deal. The thing that will get one assigned to the Goat pen will be acts of wilfull wrong doing and wilfull ignorance. It will be the intentional and continued misuse of GODs gifts, of ignoring GOD's charge for us to try to do right and not do what is wrong that will be judged.
I believe that what will not be excused come judgment day is intentionally doing harm to others in GOD's name. Those Christians (and I specifically address this to Christians because they are the ones doing evil in GOD's name) that are exclusionary, that oppress homosexuals, that try to keep children in ignorance by preaching and teaching Biblical Creationism, those who condemn GOD's own children simply because they worship differently or call Her Allah, they will be judged as Goats.
Those who have tried to do what is right, and tried not to do what is wrong, who have repented for failures and tried to do better in the future just because that is the right thing to do, whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Buddhist, Wiccan, Satanist, Atheist or Agnostic well be welcomed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 12:55 PM iano has not replied

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 193 of 300 (327230)
06-28-2006 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by iano
06-28-2006 1:55 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
So if 'Salvation by Faith Alone' is true, What happens a christian who does not live as a christian? decides to murder, rape, steal, lie, cheat, be proud, covet etc. etc.?
Do they recieve any punishment for their actions?
if so... can they be seen as have a kind of Salvation by works outlook inorder to avoid this punishment?
Or, Do they get off scott-free, penthouse at the Hotel Pearly gates, gold member status, regardless of their actions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 1:55 PM iano has not replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 194 of 300 (327231)
06-28-2006 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by iano
06-28-2006 1:55 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
Neither is he doing anyone any favors by telling them his gospel
I would suggest that you do something about the beam in your own eye, before you worry about the mote in jar's eye.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by iano, posted 06-28-2006 1:55 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 2:39 PM nwr has not replied
 Message 199 by iano, posted 06-29-2006 4:49 AM nwr has replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 195 of 300 (327232)
06-28-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Heathen
06-28-2006 2:26 PM


Re: Valid christian teaching?
I agree....
So if Hitler believes and has faith he gets salvation while Ghandi is left out because he doesn't believe?
Salvation by faith = silly.
Why the hell would god care if someone believes in him/her/it/them.
It's like me caring if an ant believes in me

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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