Take the state out of the schools!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
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Weapons are weapons, people who want to kill will kill. If all they had was a musket that's what they'd use.

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Freaky. You are missing my point entirely.A musket shot is a SINGLE SHOT RIFLE, and it isn't very powerful and it isn't very accurate. It takes several minutes to reload. You have to have some skill at loading this gun or it won't fire properly or at all. It fires buckshot or lead balls. It is quite possible to survive being shot with a musket, and it is pretty difficult to conceal a weapon that is several feet long.A semi-automatic, military-type weapon is very powerful, very accurate, and can shoot off dozens of rounds in a matter of seconds. It takes no skill to load and is quick to reload. It can be hidden easily.I understand full well that people who are bent on killing will find a way to do it. But I also think it is completely INSANE to defend a gun culture in which we make it as easy as possible for anyone who wants to, to kill the maximum number of people possible.

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I guess I don't know that things are getting worse it's maybe just more public now. I believe it's getting worse from discussions with older people, from comparing stories and experinces with them.

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Schraff I wasn't putting words in your mouth I was asking a question.

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Right. Like everybody thinks that violent crime is so prevalent and on the rise, when actually it's at it's lowest rate in 30 years.

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I personally did not have a good go of the public school system, when I saw the Columbine shooting on the news it was not a shock. It saddened me greatly that these kids had not been able to cope with their situation and had destroyed their own lives in anger.

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So who isn't troubled?

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No I didn't know exactly what you meant or I wouldn't have said anything. It seems to me that everyone is troubled. Any person is capable of losing control, not just a select few. Quite often it seems that "very well adjusted" people commit the most vicious and dispicable crimes of anyone.

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You have been watching too many movies. There are signs of sociopathic tendencies that can be detected from an early age.Everyone is not troubled to the level where they actually want to kill someone. That is rare.

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Strict enforcement meaning what? I hope that doesn't mean forming a police state, giving the police unlimited power.

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Oh yes, that's exactly what I mean. (rolls eyes)

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I can see by your language in this post that you take this problem seriously. Which is a good thing, I just don't think that more laws will change anything. A "disturbed wacko" is going to find a means to kill no matter what laws are in place.

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Yes, I agree that he will kill.I am suggesting we make it an awful lot harder for him to do so.

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Schraf I know you think I'm unintelligent and medeival,

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Not at all. I just think that you don't always think your arguments through to their logical conclusions.

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but these problems with kids and guns make me so sad I can't stand it. I can't stand to see kids in such distress that they resort to the kinds of things like the columbine shooting. You know when I saw the news reports on that particular incident, I felt more for the kids with the guns than those who were victims and bystanders. Not to say that I did not grieve for those young people who lost their lives in that tragic event. There are so many in the last few generations who are so lost and hurting. (not saying that previous generations have not been hurt) Something needs to be done this is why I started this thread saying we need to be closer to our kids and know what is going on. We need to play bigger roles in their lives, even if it is at the expense of our time, and our own carreers/goals. I know that I would never want to go through that time in my life ever again. Being a young person is so incredibly difficult, with so many pressures and expectations. The world is so big and scary, so heavy and oppressive on your shoulders, that it seems impossible to cope. We as adults need to remember how hard it was growing up and come alongside our young people and, uplift and encourage them. We need to do more than we are doing, and we need to make changes to ease the pressure they are feeling.

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I am 100% with you here, Freaky. I felt awful for the Columbine shooters, too. I was somewnat of an outcast in school, too, and I certainly had a pretty sad home life as well.I just don't understand how you say you want the killing and the pain to stop at the same time you are basically endorsing the gift of an AK-47 to anyone who wants it.Part of the reason the world bears so heavily on kid's shoulders is because we live in a culture where we value the easy availbility of guns over the safety of the children we say we love and want to protect, and they know it.[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-06-2003]

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Originally posted by funkmasterfreaky:
Sorry Schraf this seems like the cop out excuse to this problem. Personally I hate the idea of any sort of gun control. (this is a whole new thread)

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I'd rather these were in the hands of civilians instead of under the command of governments who are motivated by big business.

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Your scenario seems even sillier to me. How many citizens do you think can actually afford a rocket launcher and a tank? Your neighbour would have to be some rich to buy himself anti-aircraft guns.

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He might be rich, or he might have great credit. He might also be a member of a Militia movement which is able to raise a lot of cash.Please answer the question. Should it be legal for him to own an anti-aircraft gun?

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Don't you think an educated mass should be able to teach their children that it is wrong to shoot others!?

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So because of a few neglecting parents you will take away freedoms and any hope of self defence from the whole population?

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You are right I did contradict myself there, because your idea of putting a control on guns so angers me, I wasn't thinking. Wasn't gun control one of Hitler's first courses of action in controlling the people. Yes the educations system and the family unit are flawed and disfunctional. It is a large problem not the problem of a few.

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Oh, please, are you that desperate that you are resorting to "Hitler"?Maybe you aught to tell the UK and Japan that banning guns is making them more at risk to becoming Fascist nations.Oh, wait, they aren't Fascist military dictatorships, AND they have hardly any gun murders! Who woulda thunk it?

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You can make all the legislation you want and you won't change one thing. Legislation does not solve problems, laws do not change peoples actions. It's already illegal to shoot people, alot of good that law does in stopping people from killing others.

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Funky, can it be that you really see absolutely NO connection between the fact that someone can easily GET a gun with the subsequent high rate of gun deaths?You are also forgetting higher rates of accidental shootings and suicide when guns are easy to get.Here are some statistics:http://medlib.med.utah.edu/...ath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html"In the U.S. for 1998, there were 30,708 deaths from firearms, distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 17,424; Homicide 12,102; Accident 866; Undetermined 316. This makes firearms injuries one of the top ten causes of death in the U.S. The number of firearms-related injuries in the U.S., both fatal and non-fatal, increased through 1993, but has since declined steadily.(CDC, 2001) However, firearms injuries remain the second leading cause of injury-related death in the U.S., particularly among youth (Cherry et al, 1998).The number of non-fatal injuries is considerable--over 200,000 per year in the U.S. Many of these injuries require hospitalization and trauma care. A 1994 study revealed the cost per injury requiring admission to a trauma center was over $14,000. The cumulative lifetime cost in 1985 for gunshot wounds was estimated to be $911 million, with $13.4 billion in lost productivity. (Mock et al, 1994) The cost of the improper use of firearms in Canada was estimated at $6.6 billion per year. (Chapdelaine and Maurice, 1996)"Thirty THOUSAND people dead, freaky."Child safety is an important issue. Firearms injury is the second leading cause of non-natural death in childhood and adolescence. (CDC, 2000) Accidental shooting deaths are most commonly associated with one or more children playing with a gun they found in the home. (Choi, et al, 1994) The person pulling the trigger is a friend, family member, or the victim. (Harruff, 1992)"In one survey, 10% of families admitted to having unlocked and loaded firearms within easy reach of children (Patterson and Smith, 1987). Another study showed that two-thirds of accidental firearms injuries occured in the home, and one-third involved children under 15. 45% were self-inflicted, and 16% occurred when children were playing with guns. (Morrow and Hudson, 1986)"The issue of "home defense" or protection against intruders may well be misrepresented. A of 626 shootings in or around a residence in three U.S. cities revealed that, for every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides (Kellermann et al, 1998). Over 50% of all households in the U.S. admit to having firearms (Nelson et al, 1987). It would appear that, rather than beign used for defense, most of these weapons inflict injuries on the owners and their families."

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I'd only teach one creation, however I would give parallels, here's what I believe, here is what others believe. This is why I believe what I do and why they believe what they do.

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And that is exactly the problem.Kids aren't stupid. They will take from this lesson that "Dad believes this, so that's what we should believe."That is exactly the kind of biased teaching that homeschooling is prone to.

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Children homeshcooled or public seem to have no difficulty casting off their parents beliefs. They seem to have a much more difficult time though, casting off the belief systems (or lack of) that they are bombarded with everyday. And they say Christians are paranoid, I would argue from this thread that it is critics that get edgy about this whole thing.

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Um, you are pretty much wrong here, Freaky. The majority of kids pretty much believe what they were taught to believe as children, mostly by their parents.Considering that all people, including the children, (in the US) are steeped in a Judeo-Christian culture, I would think that this would tend to enforce Christianity as the dominant religion

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25 years in university doesn't qualify you teach. Some people have a heart and a temperment to teach and others do not. Again, knowledge is not the equivalent of wisdom.

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And having a gift to teach doesn't mean you are going to teach the correct information if you don't have the knowledge or skills.I might be a great teacher; inspiring, patient, and clear. However, if I teach my students that the moon landing was faked, or that women are inferior to men, or that evolution is false, I am not doing right by my students.

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If I send them to public school I WILL be depriving them. At home I can see the strengths and weaknesses of my child clearly. I can encourage these strengths and work on these weaknesses, ultimately giving them a better chance in life.

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Exposure to disparate ideas and intellectual challenge is most important to learning, it seems to me.BTW, it's a rare parent who can see the strengths and weaknesses of their children clearly, I would say.

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If my child were to want to know about other religions, faiths, or philosophies I would be glad to study these with them as well.

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But only if they want to? And are you well-versed in and imparial enough to convey this information well? Are most parents?

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Too many people lack the encouragement and instruction in those things that they are gifted towards. Too often music/arts (eg.) are considered unimportant or useless. Well to the person who is geared to these things there is nothing further from the truth.

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Agreed. Why don't you start a campaign in your town to raise education taxes so they can hire great teachers to run the music deparment?[This message has been edited by funkmasterfreaky, 01-03-2003][/B][/QUOTE]

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One of the top causes of death in the US? Shraf did you by chance bother to explain where criminals purchase their fire arms?

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Why is that relevant?

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Would banning firearms prevent them from obtaining them? What are your theories?

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I do not advocate banning all firearms. I advocate banning the sale of militaty-type weapons and handguns.Well, if one looks at countries such as the UK which bans handguns, one sees that criminals rarely get their hands on them.

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What is the leading cause of injury related death? Maybe we should start by banning that first.

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Motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of injury death in the US.It is all that not comparable to gun deaths, however, because cars are not specifically manufactured to be used as weapons.Also, homicide by gunshot is the leading cause of death in some places:Page Not Found - Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health."Gun-related deaths are the second leading cause of injury death in the U.S. In 1998, firearm-related deaths outnumbered motor vehicle-related deaths in 3 states and the District of Columbia."

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You are counting suicide by firearms in this dicussion? don't you think that a tad bit ridiculous? Can you prove these individuals wouldn't have committed suicide without the firearms?

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No, but if a suicidal person has access to a gun they are more likely to actually succeed in killing themselves than those who don't.CDC - Page Not Found"Nearly 3 of every 5 suicides in 1999 (57%) were committed with a firearm."

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Shraf i am having a terrible time following your logic. Are you suggesting we should ban firearms because some people own them and hurt themselves with them?

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No, I am suggesting that we ban military style weapons and handguns because they serve no other purpose than killing people a great deal of the time.

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If so why not ban cars, kives, baseball bats and all the other assorted possession which in some way could inflict damage on one's person.

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Baseball bats are used for baseball. Knives (some kinds of knives, like switchblades, are banned) are used for hunting or cooking. Cars are used for transportation.Military guns and hand guns are used for killing people.

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In contrast, what were the reported costs for other assorted injuries?

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Don't know. I was researching the cost of gun injuries because there is no excuse for them occurring. There is no good reason to have such easy access to military weapons and ammunition unless you think it's OK for thousands and thousands of people die every year.

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can you prove banning firearms or imposing laws on them would vastly decrease the number of firearm related crimes?

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I think that controlling handguns and military weapons would greatly decrease the number of firearm related crimes judging by the low firearm-related crime rates in countries which have banned such weapons.Page Not Found - Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health."Among 36 high-income and upper-middle-income countries, the U.S. has the highest overall gun mortality rate. The rate of gun mortality in the U.S. is 8 times higher than in other high-income countries.Of all firearm homicides in 2000 in which the type of gun was known, 88% were committed with handguns.

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Of course banning firearms would prevent accidents with them. Banning cars would also prevent car related deaths. Perhaps we should think about that first.

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This is a silly comparison. Cars are primarily used for transportation. Car accidents are a side effect of bad driving.Military firearms and handguns are intended to be used to kill people.
Gun injuries and deaths are the intended purpose of having a gun.

Are you really saying that deaths in motor vehicle crashes, which are nearly ALL accidents, are equivilant to deaths due to firearms, which are nearly ALL suicides and homicides?This is a base rate thing. Cars are something that most of the adult population of the US use every day. The number of deaths associated with their use would, of course, be higher.The fact that a much smaller percentage of the entire population of the US owns a firearm, yet firearm death is a leading cause of death and injury, means that they are much more dangerous than cars.Here's your suicide stats:Forbidden"Studies by public health professionals have repeatedly found that having a gun around for any reason increases the likelihood that a family member-as opposed to a criminal-will be inured or killed with a gun. A 1997 American Journal of Public Health study showed that family members that had a history of buying a handgun from a licensed dealer were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as were persons similarly situated who had no such family history of gun purchase. This increased risk persisted for more than five years after the handgun was purchased.
An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times.Other studies have looked specifically at the more narrow question of keeping guns in the home for self-defense. One, published in The New England Journal of Medicine, found that having a gun in the home made it nearly three times more likely that someone in the family will be killed. This risk is particularly high for women, who are more likely to be killed by a spouse, intimate acquaintance, or close relative. An Archives of Internal Medicine study found that, with one or more guns in the home, the risk of suicide among women increased nearly five times and the risk of homicide increased more than three times."OK, let's assume that I am completely wrong and you are completely right.What regulations do you think there should be on firearms? What do you think about the thousands and thousands of injuries and deaths that occur every year? What do you think of their easy availability of guns at gun shows where no background criminal check is necessary?