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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man
AdminAsgara
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Message 1 of 71 (330954)
07-11-2006 8:51 PM


An addition to our newest column "Belief Statements." The latest article in our column appears below, "Lithodid-Man" or you can click here to view in a separate window. If the subject interests you, please feel free to begin a discussion in this thread.

If you would like us to host your belief statement, please contact AdminAsgara.


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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 24766
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 2 of 71 (331452)
    07-13-2006 10:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
    07-11-2006 8:51 PM


    Thank you sir.
    You raise several interesting points and if you will agree, I'd like to ask you a few questions about them.

    Before that though, I would like to simply thank you for having the courage to step out like this.

    You mention that your beliefs were strong, even extreme until you found an instance of a blatant lie. I have heard the same from other people who like you, have moved from a position of faith to atheism. Surprisingly the example you gave of Tyre is not unique. I personally know several folk who like you ran into that same lie and like you, it was as if a light had suddenly been shined onto all the other information they had been indoctrinated with.

    On to my quesstions.

    If, when you went back to the Pastor and confronted him with the fact that the prophecy in question was never fulfilled, he had explained that it was to be taken as a morality story, and not literally, and shown you pictures of Tyre today, would you have had the same reaction?

    Was the fact that he simply denied reality such an insult to your intellegence that you could never accept anything he said from then on?

    Had your early experience with Christianity been in an environment where you were challenged to question dogma rather than accept dogma, do you think it even remotely possible that you might be a Christian even today?


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-11-2006 8:51 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 3 by Lithodid-Man, posted 07-16-2006 6:38 PM jar has responded

      
    Lithodid-Man
    Member
    Posts: 504
    From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
    Joined: 03-22-2004


    Message 3 of 71 (332288)
    07-16-2006 6:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 2 by jar
    07-13-2006 10:51 AM


    Re: Thank you sir.
    Those are tough questions Jar but I will do my best.

    I think had the pastor been honest from the beginning none of this would have occurred. I don't believe he had malicious intent, but by lying to me he insulted and wounded me in a way I still feel 25 years later. Part of it is illogical pride on my part. I made an ass out of myself because I believed what he said. To this day I am suspicious of my ability to reason because of how strong I believed his stories.

    Had I been in a Christian environment that encouraged questioning I believe I might still consider myself Christian (but I don't know that, of course). My belief at the time was based on absolutes. ALL of the Bible had to be true if ANY of it were true. Liberal Christianity was akin to satanism. There was a war against Christians designed to destroy belief by allowing doubt. And so on.

    The part I didn't discuss that I resent is that was pretty much the beginning of the end of my rerlationship with my brother. He stayed with that church and now is so far extreme that those days he considers his liberal days. He has on his bedroom wall a 6x8 foot poster of Timothy McVeigh that says "American patriot". He has become a complete fanatic that needs professional help, and I blame that church for setting him on that path (I recognize that there may be other issues). That church took away the tools he might use to think his way out of it by convincing him back when he was a kid that this war on Christianity takes the form of supposed evidence that there is no war on Christianity.


    Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
    Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
    Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
    Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 24766
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 4 of 71 (332521)
    07-17-2006 11:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Lithodid-Man
    07-16-2006 6:38 PM


    So what is the possible solution?
    From what you have said so far I get the feeling that you would have descibed your Faith as a youngster as "Strong" and sure. Had you been asked, and it looks like you were on several occasions, you would have answered that you "Knew that your pastor was right and that others were wrong."

    I am interested from what I must admit is a personal perspective. I see many people here and outside that tell similar stories. We have many theists here at EvC that use the term "Know" when it comes to their religion, whether they are Christians, who else might be a Christian or even about things such as the Flood or the Fall.

    Many such people when they finally do actually see the evidence that refutes things that they Know, also turn away from Christianity. Personally, I hate that because I do beklieve there is a GOD and that Christianity does have much to offer in the way of instruction, comfort and help.

    In the case of your Pastor, and also your brother, there are a few possibilities. If the Pastor actually did make the trip, did take the picture, then he was certainly aware that the Biblical story of Tyre is simply wrong, not an accurate description of the real world.

    We have seen many people here at EvC say that they prefer that children be raised and educated outside the public school and that they feel threatened that the public school system is teaching things that are counter to their beliefs. They equate this to "An atack on Christianity."

    Unfortunately, if you do live in this world, it is very likely you will eventually be confronted with evidence that refutes many widely held Christian belifes, ones like Young Earth or that there was a Great Worldwide Flood. This seems to lead to one of several reactions,

    1. the person realizes that the actuality of such beliefs does not have anything to do with GOD or a belief in GOD and moves on.
    2. the person abandons their Faith totally.
    3. they move into a creative stance where they make up a series of possible scenarios that explain whatever troupling fact is presented to them without even considering that many of their mythical scenarios are mutually exclusive.
    4. they say "Yes none of the evidence supports my beliefs but I will continue believing them anyway.

    Of those options, the first and fourth seem to happen less often than the second or third.

    So, what steps should Christians take to prevent options 2 & 3?


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Lithodid-Man, posted 07-16-2006 6:38 PM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 7384
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003


    Message 5 of 71 (332526)
    07-17-2006 11:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
    07-11-2006 8:51 PM


    A very honest and revealing story
    Lithodid, I applaud your honesty and your sharing concerning the paths that led you to the beliefs you now have. You and Jar are having a productive follow-up discussion as well, so I'll step back and watch it develop!

    Belief should be a product of experience and not merely a blind-faith option.

    I am sorry that your brother is so rigid and unbending in his beliefs...it kinda goes hand in hand with our other Rapture-ready thread.

    Im honored to know a teacher that is as broad minded as yourself, though! :)


    This message is a reply to:
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    Faith
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    Message 6 of 71 (337582)
    08-03-2006 2:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
    07-11-2006 8:51 PM


    No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    The fact that there is a modern city in the general vicinity of the ancient location of Tyre doesn't falsify the prophecy of Tyre's total demise. Obviously ancient Tyre is utterly dead. The rock for the spreading of nets that was prophesied exists, and that mere fact makes a fine testimony to the fulfillment of the prophecy.

    Clearly the prophecy was about the end of a great city-state, and Tyre was one of the greatest in its day. That civilization is dead. Not a shred of it remains. Many other civilizations have come and gone since then in the general vicinity and all that remains of them is ruins too.

    The prophecy came true and that specific prophecy of a bare rock spread with fishing nets, symbolizing the utter death of Tyre and its wealth and influence, is nicely fulfilled and makes a neat emblem of the truth of God's word.

    quote:
    Eze 26:4-14: And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be [a place for] the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations. And her daughters which [are] in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

    For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

    And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.


    All the above was fulfilled. Ancient Tyre is gone. Nebuchadnezzar was the first to overrun her, but others followed. All of it has been fulfilled. Right down to the bare rock in the midst of the sea that is a place for the spreading of nets.

    From a tourist site:

    Tyre, Sidon & Eshmoun
    ...Tyre, named after the founder of Carthage, and formerly the greatest of the Phoenician city-states. Located 83km / 52 miles south of Beirut, Tyre is a designated World Heritage Site. Our tour starts with a visit to the excavated ruins that consist of three parts: the south side of the old Phoenician island-city that includes a large site of colonnades, public baths, mosaic streets and a rectangular arena, the northern site ruins observed from the road, and the third area on the landward side east that consists of the most impressive archaeological remains, such as the Roman necropolis and hippodrome.
    http://www.worldheritagetours.com/tours/lebanon_prebiblical.html

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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     Message 25 by Lithodid-Man, posted 08-05-2006 4:14 AM Faith has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 24766
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 7 of 71 (337957)
    08-04-2006 5:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
    08-03-2006 2:17 AM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    'Cept of course, it never happened. Old Nebbi tried, tried valiantly for 13 years, but never succeeded. Neither did Alexander the Great 300 YEARS after the prophecy was supposedly carried out. And Tyre exists yet today.

    Yet another attempt to portray myth as fact falls on its face.

    start searching here

    Sure the names of nations have changed, and old buildings torn down and rebuilt, but Tyre was there before the Bible was written and has been there ever since.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Faith, posted 08-03-2006 2:17 AM Faith has responded

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     Message 8 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 5:34 PM jar has responded

      
    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 16205
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 8 of 71 (337958)
    08-04-2006 5:34 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by jar
    08-04-2006 5:19 PM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    Sure the names of nations have changed, and old buildings torn down and rebuilt, but Tyre was there before the Bible was written and has been there ever since.

    Not as the great city-state God said would be flattened. It was and it never rose again.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 5:19 PM jar has responded

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     Message 9 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 5:43 PM Faith has responded

        
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 24766
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 9 of 71 (337959)
    08-04-2006 5:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Faith
    08-04-2006 5:34 PM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    Eze 26:4-14: And they shall destroy the walls of Tyrus, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be [a place for] the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD: and it shall become a spoil to the nations. And her daughters which [are] in the field shall be slain by the sword; and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.

    For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water.

    And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.

    The above just plain didn't happen. Now you can make up all the additions to the story you want, but 300 years later it was still a great City-State.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
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    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 16205
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 10 of 71 (337961)
    08-04-2006 5:51 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by jar
    08-04-2006 5:43 PM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    Where's your proof?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 5:43 PM jar has responded

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    mark24
    Member (Idle past 1659 days)
    Posts: 3857
    From: UK
    Joined: 12-01-2001


    Message 11 of 71 (337964)
    08-04-2006 6:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
    08-03-2006 2:17 AM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    Faith,

    The fact that there is a modern city in the general vicinity of the ancient location of Tyre doesn't falsify the prophecy of Tyre's total demise.

    "General vicinity"? The city that was assaulted by Alexander, & existed continuously through biblical times is the most seaward part of the peninsular. It is most definately built on.

    Mark


    There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 24766
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 12 of 71 (337965)
    08-04-2006 6:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
    08-04-2006 5:51 PM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    It was still a great City-State when Alexander the Great showed up. And it is there today.

    The point is to try to take a morality story, one meant to teach a lesson to the Hebrews of the day as though it were literally true when it is perfectly obvious to anyone that looks that the City of Tyre has been there since at least 3500 BC, likely far longer, is a great way to drive folk away from the truths that are in the Bible and in the Judaic Religions.

    There is much to be learned from the stories in the Bible, but as with Lithodid-Man, when Christians try to bend reality to fit their interpretation of the Bible, the message gets lost and all too often, the result is that they turn away from religion.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 5:51 PM Faith has responded

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    Faith
    Member
    Posts: 16205
    Joined: 10-06-2001
    Member Rating: 1.4


    Message 13 of 71 (337982)
    08-04-2006 6:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by jar
    08-04-2006 6:06 PM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    It was still a great City-State when Alexander the Great showed up. And it is there today.

    It certainly is not there today. Its former glory has been buried under layers of subsequent civilizations, also mere ruins.

    And again, what is your proof evidence that it was "still a great City-State" when Alexander the Great showed up?

    Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
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    arachnophilia
    Member
    Posts: 8967
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 14 of 71 (337984)
    08-04-2006 7:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
    08-04-2006 6:59 PM


    Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
    It certainly is not there today.

    it certainly is! see that thing that looks like a thriving metropolitan area on the beach? that's a thriving metropolitan area on the beach.

    although, given enough time, and israel might actually destroy tyre, for real this time. considering they're bombing it right now, because hizballah is launching rockest from there.


    אָרַח

    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 24766
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 15 of 71 (337985)
    08-04-2006 7:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
    08-04-2006 6:59 PM


    the Tyre prophecy was NOT fulfilled
    It certainly is not there today.

    Sure it is. It is the fourth largest city in Lebanon. See, it is really laughable assertions like that that drive people away from Christianty.

    When Alexander showed up it was so powerful that he feared leaving it as a threat in his rear and bypassing it. He laid siege to it for months with no results. Finally, and only with the help of voluteers from Sidon (another City-State by the way) he built a causeway out to the Island fortress.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Faith, posted 08-04-2006 6:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

      
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